Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - Haven't posted in a bit

Haven't posted in a bit

Have a Question about some Grammar point? Share it with the world!

Haven't posted in a bit

Postby torgosaves » Fri 02.03.2006 9:06 pm

I was wandering about:

夫の運転する...

What's that "の" mean in this context.
There's a puzzler... I'm mean if you are not knowledgeable, it's a puzzler.

eh..
ブログに行って下さい。http://aoutain.blogspot.com/
User avatar
torgosaves
 
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat 03.19.2005 2:52 pm

RE: Haven't posted in a bit

Postby AJBryant » Fri 02.03.2006 9:43 pm

Is there MORE to the sentence?

CONTEXT context CONTEXT.


Tony
User avatar
AJBryant
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5313
Joined: Sun 10.09.2005 11:29 am
Location: Indiana
Native language: English
Gender: Male

RE: Haven't posted in a bit

Postby torgosaves » Sat 02.04.2006 3:34 pm

夫の運転する緑色のBMWが立木の合間を見え隠れしていたのも、

That's the first part of the sentence, I'm not going to write the whole thing, because it's quite long. I'm just wondering about that first "の". It looks like it's used in place of a
"が"
ブログに行って下さい。http://aoutain.blogspot.com/
User avatar
torgosaves
 
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat 03.19.2005 2:52 pm

RE: Haven't posted in a bit

Postby coco » Sat 02.04.2006 9:36 pm

夫の運転する緑色のBMWが立木の合間を見え隠れしていたのも、

この文章を分解すると、文の核は
車が見え(隠れしてい)た。」 (+ のも〜 ) になります。
* 車= 夫が運転している緑色のBMW

a)夫の運転する車が見えた。
b)夫が運転する車が見えた。
というふたつの阜サがあるとき、「が」の重複を避けて、a)を使う人が少なくありません。
a) に 修飾語をつけると
夫の運転する緑色のBMWが木立の合間を見え隠れしていた(のも、〜)」になります。

b)も決して間違いではありませんし、意味は同じです。
coco
 
Posts: 3061
Joined: Mon 05.30.2005 12:43 am
Location: 東京都
Native language: 日本語(Japanese)

RE: Haven't posted in a bit

Postby AJBryant » Sat 02.04.2006 11:29 pm

夫の運転する緑色のBMW


That's what I thought.

It's the BMW that my sister drives.

私の書いた本 The book I wrote.
母のつくったご飯 The rice mom made.
ダ・ヴィンチの描いたモナ・リサ The Mona Lisa Leonardo painted.

Tony
User avatar
AJBryant
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5313
Joined: Sun 10.09.2005 11:29 am
Location: Indiana
Native language: English
Gender: Male

RE: Haven't posted in a bit

Postby zengargoyle » Sat 02.04.2006 11:46 pm

just to make sure i'm not confused... this is a の replacing a が as the subject marker in an embeded sentence that is being used to modify some other noun in the embeding sentence as a sylistic way to avoid having multiple が in the same sentence?

母のつくった飯が面白いです。
母がつくった飯が面白いです。

so these two are equivalent?
(of course i meant おいしい, but considering my mom's rice...)
Last edited by zengargoyle on Sat 02.04.2006 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
zengargoyle
 
Posts: 1200
Joined: Sun 05.29.2005 10:16 pm

RE: Haven't posted in a bit

Postby keatonatron » Sun 02.05.2006 12:41 am

When you have an embedded sentence, it is extremely common for の to replace が.

It's not necessarily stylistic... It seems to make sense, to me anyway.

母が作ったご飯 - The "Mom made" food.
母の作ったご飯 - Mom's "made food".

It's an abstract way to look at it, but do you see how the meanings are really the same?

私が好きな本 - The "I like" book
私の好きな本 - My liked book
Last edited by keatonatron on Sun 02.05.2006 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
keatonatron
 
Posts: 4838
Joined: Sat 02.04.2006 3:31 am
Location: Tokyo (Via Seattle)
Native language: English
Gender: Male

RE: Haven't posted in a bit

Postby coco » Sun 02.05.2006 2:38 am

母のつくった飯が面白いです。
母がつくった飯が面白いです。
so these two are equivalent?

意味は同じです。
(1)母つくった飯面白い
(2)母つくった飯面白い
(3)母つくった飯面白い
(4)母つくった飯面白い

(2)も やはり、「が」が重複するので、文語では(4)のように
格助詞を別のものに言い換える方が洗練された文章といわれます。

このときの「は」と「が」の使い分けは
「(山田ではなく)田中その事件の犯人であった」という場合の
「は」と「が」の使い分けよりも曖昧で微妙な使い分けです。

「面白い」に 「味だ(です)」を加えると
(5)母のつくった飯面白い味だ(です)
(6)母がつくった飯面白い味だ(です)
(7)母のつくった飯面白い味だ(です)
(8)母がつくった飯面白い味だ(です)
(5)(6)の方が一般的で、(7)(8)はほとんど使われません。

文語において、複文の中で使われる格助詞は、前後にどの格助詞を使うかによって吟味されるのが一般的です。

砕けた会話でも例文の「母」の後は「が」と「の」の両方が使われます。
「オフクロの/がつくったメシってさぁ、面白いんだよな」(男性)
「お母さんが/のつくったご飯って*、おもしろいよね」(女性)

このときの「って」は「は」の砕けた形です。
例: あなたって本当におもしろいね>あなたは本当におもしろい人ですね。
P)
coco
 
Posts: 3061
Joined: Mon 05.30.2005 12:43 am
Location: 東京都
Native language: 日本語(Japanese)

RE: Haven't posted in a bit

Postby AJBryant » Sun 02.05.2006 12:18 pm

just to make sure i'm not confused... this is a の replacing a が as the subject marker in an embeded sentence that is being used to modify some other noun in the embeding sentence as a sylistic way to avoid having multiple が in the same sentence?


It's possible I've been misreading this from day one, but I've never viewe this as the "subject marker" が; I've always looked at it as a classical genetive marker synonymous with の as in "Kasumigaseki," and "waga mono," and "Arashigaoka."

Tony
User avatar
AJBryant
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5313
Joined: Sun 10.09.2005 11:29 am
Location: Indiana
Native language: English
Gender: Male

RE: Haven't posted in a bit

Postby zengargoyle » Sun 02.05.2006 6:51 pm

i have a book that has a little section on の as が, and starts with this example:

そしてここらが 麹室のある ところだ。
and this area kōji room exists place is.
And right about here is where the kōji room is located.

where broken out it would be 麹室がある, but since that is embeded and modifying ところ a の is used.

とても頭のいい、心の優しい少年でした。
He was a very intelligent, kindhearted boy.

after the book introduces it, it show up moderately often as a の (subj.)

i can see it many ways, sorta like possesive の , sorta like が, sorta like nominalizer の making the word such a strong noun that it's obvious it's the subject in it's little world so it's ok to drop the が... i'm not sure if there's an easy obvious English equivalent, or if i'm just really confused. P)
User avatar
zengargoyle
 
Posts: 1200
Joined: Sun 05.29.2005 10:16 pm

RE: Haven't posted in a bit

Postby keatonatron » Sun 02.05.2006 11:00 pm

AJBryant wrote:
It's possible I've been misreading this from day one, but I've never viewe this as the "subject marker" が; I've always looked at it as a classical genetive marker synonymous with の


I think I know what you're talking about... it denotes the trait to be talked about. Like, Aさんは背が高い. As for Mr. A, his property of "height" has a value of "tall" :D Let's get very "programmer" about it.

That's kinda what I was getting at before... As for this food, it's relation to "mom" is "made". That totally makes sense to me, but I bet noooo one else will get it :(
User avatar
keatonatron
 
Posts: 4838
Joined: Sat 02.04.2006 3:31 am
Location: Tokyo (Via Seattle)
Native language: English
Gender: Male

RE: Haven't posted in a bit

Postby coco » Mon 02.06.2006 2:26 am

i'm not sure if there's an easy obvious English equivalent

Harisenbon-san taught us about a particle が once. (very good explanation! )
http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=796
Please read が parts( F、G、H、 I) .
!In a Noun phrase, が or の can both be used
これは私が書いた本です。
これは私の書いたほんです。


I've found a sample sentence that was shown on the web page of publishing company 光村図書(みつむらとしょ).
The 光村図書 is publishing authorized ( Approved by the Ministry of Education**) textbooks for compulsory education, included English text books.

http://www.mitsumura-tosho.co.jp/Kyoka/ ... brary.html*1
The book is titled Botchan and is written by Natsume Soseki.
本の題名は「坊ちゃん」で,夏目漱石書いた本です。

we can say
2
本の題名は「坊ちゃん」で、夏目漱石*書いた本です。

I think both Japanese sentences(1&2) will be translated same English(≒easy obvious English equivalent (? :p ).I hope someone gives us the answer too.
*夏目漱石(1867-1916 http://www.jref.com/glossary/natsume_soseki.shtml)

There are other useful expressions (daily conversations) on the 光村図書 site ↓
http://www.mitsumura-tosho.co.jp/Kyoka/ ... natoki.asp*

**formal nomenclature: Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology

which makes your confusion deepen ? my engrish or 日本語?
...or maybe I misunderstood your questions... :D


追記:光村図書のリンク切れ(dead link ) あとで見つけたら修正しておきます。8月現在
Last edited by coco on Tue 08.08.2006 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
coco
 
Posts: 3061
Joined: Mon 05.30.2005 12:43 am
Location: 東京都
Native language: 日本語(Japanese)

RE: Haven't posted in a bit

Postby zengargoyle » Mon 02.06.2006 3:58 am

1) the car i wrecked ... (rest of sentence).
2) my wrecked car ... (rest of sentence).

1) 私が滅ぼした車 ...
2) 私の滅ぼした車 ...

in 1) it's obvious that I was the one who wrecked the car, in 2) it seems possible that somebody else wrecked my car. how can one be sure that the の isn't being used in the possive sense? maybe it's something that needs more CONTEXT to be certain. :D

i'm probably in over my head... i mostly get は vs が, and i understand replacing が with の in noun phrases (they make sense when i read them). i'm just unsure how.

夫の運転する緑色のBMW

1) my husband's green driving BMW? (maybe he has a RACING BMW or a SHOW BMW)
or
2) the green BMW that my husband drives?

it seems that it has to be 2), but can you be sure that it's not 1)??
User avatar
zengargoyle
 
Posts: 1200
Joined: Sun 05.29.2005 10:16 pm

RE: Haven't posted in a bit

Postby AJBryant » Mon 02.06.2006 3:47 pm

1) 私が滅ぼした車 ...
2) 私の滅ぼした車 ..


Actually, both of these say "The car I wrecked."

The difference, though, is that the second can *also* be read as "my wrecked car" -- it's ambiguous as to meaning, and only context would make it clear.

Think of the English sentence "I met a man with a dog named Ralph."

Is Ralph the man or the dog? Grammatically, it's the dog, but many authors are careless. I still have somewhere here a mediocre mystery novel that I bought *solely* for one sentence in it: "There was a man standing under the streetlight with a mustache named Smith."

Tony
User avatar
AJBryant
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5313
Joined: Sun 10.09.2005 11:29 am
Location: Indiana
Native language: English
Gender: Male

RE: Haven't posted in a bit

Postby InsanityRanch » Mon 02.06.2006 7:04 pm

Hi, all...

Maybe I'm off here, but if I wanted to say, "my wrecked car" without implying I wrecked it, wouldn't that be,

私の滅ぼされた車

?

Shira
"Give me a fruitful error any time, full of seeds, bursting with its own corrections. You can keep your sterile truth for yourself." -- Vilfredo Pareto
InsanityRanch
 
Posts: 227
Joined: Tue 04.19.2005 2:17 pm

Next

Return to Grammar Questions and Problems

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests