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なりたがっていません

Postby GyakuGirePanda » Sun 02.26.2006 9:07 pm

友人になりたがっていません

why is it "naritagatteimasen" and not "naritakunai"?
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RE: なりたがっていません

Postby richvh » Sun 02.26.2006 10:50 pm

When talking of yourself, you would use なりたくない, but when talking of others adding the がる helper to the たい conjugation is appropriate. 友人になりたくない is "I don't want to become your friend", 友人になりたがっていません is "you(he/she/they) don't seem to want to become my friend."
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RE: なりたがっていません

Postby coco » Mon 02.27.2006 12:25 am

Verb+「(し)たがる」form
食べたがる → negative 食べたがらない
遊びたがる → 遊びたがらない
欲しがる → 欲しがらない
なりたがる → なりたがらない

+「て」form
食べたがってる → 食べたがってない
遊びたがってる→遊びたがってない
欲しがってる → 欲しがってない
なりたがってる →なりたがってない
in the conversations い is commonly omitted.
Those forms are used for 三人称( he/she/they (and animals))
・この犬は肉をたくさん食べた[がる/がらない]。
・彼女は、君からのプレゼントを欲しがって[いる/いない]。
・パンダ君(person's nick name)は警察官になりたがって[いる/いない]。
・美香ちゃんはトニーちゃんの(と)友達になりたがって[いる/いない]。
....Who is Mika-chan?   :D
わかった? わからないところがあったら いつでも質問してください。
---------------------------------
Edit :correction 「(し)たがる」
たいvs たがる (rather than がる) is better to understand. (although there are some exceptions. ) Check out Tae Kim's Site. There are some explanations too.
Last edited by coco on Tue 02.28.2006 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: なりたがっていません

Postby AJBryant » Mon 02.27.2006 3:06 am

友人になりたがっていません

why is it "naritagatteimasen" and not "naritakunai"?


Well, without any context for the sentence, there's no telling.

Hence my constant insistence on CONTEXT.

Both sentences are correct, but situationally one may be more appropriate than the other.


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RE: なりたがっていません

Postby Shibakoen » Mon 02.27.2006 8:50 pm

If I remember correctly, the proper way to get around not being able to use -tai to express other people's desires is to stick in the garu forms, as rich said. I didn't mean to duplicate your explanations, I just wanted to clear up why it's "appropriate".
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RE: なりたがっていません

Postby GyakuGirePanda » Mon 02.27.2006 10:57 pm

richvh wrote:
When talking of yourself, you would use なりたくない, but when talking of others adding the がる helper to the たい conjugation is appropriate. 友人になりたくない is "I don't want to become your friend", 友人になりたがっていません is "you(he/she/they) don't seem to want to become my friend."


Thank you Rich-san and thank you coco san! I have to study "garu" more.

and AJBryant, I don't know what you mean by needing context. That's all I wanted to say. 友人になりたがっていません.
or would it be easier for you if I add in pronouns??

domou arigatou gozaimasu Coco, Rich, AJBryant
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RE: なりたがっていません

Postby keatonatron » Tue 02.28.2006 12:06 am

Tony meant by the sentence you provided we don't know WHO is doing the action of not wanting to become friends, which means we don't know if it should be naritakunai or naritagatteimasen.
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RE: なりたがっていません

Postby natemb » Tue 02.28.2006 12:58 am

richvh wrote:
When talking of yourself, you would use なりたくない, but when talking of others adding the がる helper to the たい conjugation is appropriate. 友人になりたくない is "I don't want to become your friend", 友人になりたがっていません is "you(he/she/they) don't seem to want to become my friend."


I am slightly confused because I thought the -たい construction could be used with the second person ("you"). Is that only for questions? This certainly sounds right to me:

何が食べたい? What do you want to eat?
なにが たべたい?

I don't think this is wrong, but can the -たがっている form also be used here?

What about "you want" sentences that aren't questions (a bit rude, but still common in English at least). Which would you use, if any?

The rest of what you say agrees completely with what I was taught: -たい for first person (I, we) and -たがっている for 3rd (he, she, they).
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RE: なりたがっていません

Postby coco » Tue 02.28.2006 2:04 am

パンダ。
Here are the usages in the conversation.

scene1(commonly conversation)
パンダ :僕はCocoとは友達になりたくないよ。
Coco  : 私だってパンダなんかとは友達になりたくないよ!!
そんなこというと、誰だってパンダとは、友達になりたがらないよ。
easy to understand version
パンダ : 私はあなたとは友達になりたくありません。
Coco : 私だってパンダ君とは友達になりたくありません。そのような事を言う人とは誰だって友達になりたがらないと思います。



scene2( in the Kindergarten)

パンダ : 先生!
先生  : はい。パンダ君。なんですか?
パンダ : トニーがトイレに行きたがってるよ。
先生  : トニーちゃん。トイレに行きたいの?
トニー : …。 (blush)
先生  : トイレに行きたいの?
トニー : …うん。…ぼく、トイレに行きたい
先生  : はやく行ってらっしゃい。 早く! 急いで!
トニー : … (brimming with tears)
パンダ : あっ!!
先生 : あ〜〜!
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RE: なりたがっていません

Postby richvh » Tue 02.28.2006 3:50 am

As I understand it, when using an adjective describing second or third person's desires or feelings, there are a number of ways to avoid a direct statement:

Quoting (あなたは私の友達になりたくないと言う) (You say you don't want to become my friend)
Giving your thoughts (あなたは私の友達になりたくないと思う) (I think you don't want to become my friend)
Reporting hearsay (あなたは私の友達になりたくないそうだ) (They say you don't want to become my friend)
Using 〜がる to report your impression (あなたは私の友達になりたがっていない) (You don't seem to want to become my friend)
Asking (あなたはわたしのともだちになりたくないの?) (Don't you want to become my friend?)
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RE: なりたがっていません

Postby Shibakoen » Tue 02.28.2006 6:37 am

何が食べたい? What do you want to eat?


This is exactly what I wanted to clarify. From what I have been taught, it is more acceptable when asking a question like this regarding someone else's desires, but even then it is a bit too informal. It is definitely not acceptable in most cases to state something like, ここさんはすしを食べたい with the translation of "Coco wants to eat sushi". If you look at it linguistically, this kind of statement would be ambiguous at best without stating the subject. Everything I've ever learned about this topic has been that this sentance would be so the がって is not just optional, but neccessary when stating someone else's opinion. It's like saying "It seems that so-and-so wants..."

I've also been told that if you want to ask some one if they want something, or if they want to do something it is nearly always in the form of an "invitation" instead of a direct question about what the person wants. Thus, 「食べに行きませんか」 instead of 「食べたいか」. I've heard that a question like 「食べたいか」 is very informal and could be a bit rude. If I'm wrong on this, I would definitely like some clarification.
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RE: なりたがっていません

Postby rodegia » Tue 02.28.2006 7:32 am

Shibakoen, you are right. 「何が食べたい? 」 is very informal and it's only something you'd want to ask your friends or family. To ask what someone wants to eat politely, you should ask 「何を食べますか?」

「食べに行きませんか」 is "Would you like to go get something to eat?"

たがる is a judgement. From some piece of information you've got, it seems that someone wants to do something. In Coco's wonderful example, Panda probably saw Tony squirming in his seat or maybe a wet spot or something. Coco's examples are funny and spot on.
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RE: なりたがっていません

Postby natemb » Tue 02.28.2006 8:55 am

Thank you richvh, Shibakoen, and rodegia for your detailed explanations (and coco-san for your amusing example ;) ). I think I understand now! I never knew what がる really meant before, and had just memorized -たがっている as the 3rd person of -たい.

rodegia wrote:
Shibakoen, you are right. 「何が食べたい? 」 is very informal and it's only something you'd want to ask your friends or family.

Now that you mention it, I'm pretty sure I picked up 「何が食べたい?」 (or actually more often just 「何食べたい?」) from hanging out with my girlfriend's family, so that fits right in with what you said. So far I think I have only used it with my girlfriend and her younger sister, so hopefully I haven't slipped up, but it's good to know what to say in more formal situations.

Now that we've established that -たい can be used for the second person (although only in very informal settings!), I have one more question about the 3rd person: I remember learning that you never use the simple -たい ending with the 3rd person, but Shibakoen said "in most cases" this was not acceptable. So I started to wonder whether I can use -たい for the 3rd person in the same informal settings where it works for the 2nd person?

For example, I ask one good friend what another (named あつし but we call him あっちゃん) wants to eat (tonight):
あっちゃんは何食べたい?

Is there any circumstance in which this kind of sentence could be used, or do you always have to use a more indirect construction for 3rd person?

Sorry for persistent questions and thank all for your help! m(__)m
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RE: なりたがっていません

Postby keatonatron » Tue 02.28.2006 11:18 am

がる actually means "appears to". Japanese seems to be very strict about not overstepping one's bounds. Just because your friend said he's happy, those words are not your own and you can't simply state the same. In fact, if your friend only looks happy, you still can't assume to know his feelings as fact, and must still state that he only looks happy.

This is what's happening with this sentence. When you are talking about your own feelings, it is fine to say "I want to eat." (食べたい) Who knows better than you? When you are asking a friend or coworker if they want to eat, it is perfectly fine to ask them directly "Do you want to eat?" (食べたい(ですか)?) Who knows better than them?

However, when you are talking *about* someone, there is no way to know their feelings so you must say "He wants to eat, so it seems." (食べたがる)

This がる is used for any adjective describing someone who isn't talking or being asked:

寂しがる
嫌がる
嬉しがる
懐かしがる

Asking a friend "食べたがってる?" would be really strange. "Does it look like you want to eat?" Your friend has no idea what he looks like, he just knows he's hungry!

(By the way, my use of "appears" or "looks like" includes seeing someone, hearing from someone [about themselves *or* others], or any other method you might use to get that information. Not just actual appearances or looking...)
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RE: なりたがっていません

Postby coco » Tue 02.28.2006 11:35 am

日本語中級・上級者の方が読んでいらっしゃるので解説を加えます。
Rich さんがおっしゃったように
Using 〜がる to report your impression (あなたは私の友達になりたがっていない) (You don't seem to want to become my friend)
の用法は間違いではありません。
実際のところ、「友達になりたがっている」という阜サ自体、大人が使用するには不自然な文脈なので若干無理があるのですが、これを阜サするとしたら「あなたは私の友人にはなりたくなさそうですね」のように「なさそう」という推量を使うのが自然です。
ただ、子供の場合には
「美香ちゃん( you) は ボクの友達になりたがってないでしょ」などと相手に言うことは考えられます。

「たがる」 自体は 本来下記のような説明ですので、Richさんのご説明のように対面する相手に対して使うことはあります。
-------from JJ Dictionary----------
たが・る
{助動詞}…したいというようすを見せる。食べたがる。行きたがる。 
-------------------------------------

文例を考えてみました。
Actually,there are many usages used for 2nd(you) like these.
・ 「どうしてあなたはそんなにアメリカに行きたがるのですか?」
・ 「なぜ、君がそんなに蛇を飼いたがるのか全く理解できないよ」
・ 「君はいつでもラーメンを食べたがっているね」
・ 「どうしてそんなに帰りたがってるの?」
↓from ALC
あなたは、どんなことについても議論したがるのですね。
You'd argue about anything, wouldn't you?

---------------------
Generally, usage of(し) たがる for 2nd has a sound of "cold pricklies".
一般的には対面相手に対して「(し)たがる」を使う場合、相手に対する批判的な感情が含まれていると解釈されます。

Basically したがる/したがっている form are used for 3rd(He/she/they).
基本的には 「したがる/したがっている」は第三者の要望を対面相手に伝言するものだ、と考えた方がいいでしょう。
When we are talking to bosses, customers, higher person(目上の人)or not familiar people, we avoid to use the phrase したがる/したがっている. It is considered impolite expression. Using たがる for 2nd(you), has a tone of something like a "itch to (verb) .○○したがる. (食べたがる=itch to eat)
社会人であれば、敬語を使うような相手に対面して相手の要望を「したがる/したがっている」と阜サするのは不躾だとみなされます。対面相手に「したがる/したがっている」を使うと「したくてたまらない」というような強い要望、欲求を阜サしていると解釈されるケースが多いと思います。
(close friends, family member are OK. 家族や親しい間柄ならば問題はありませんが、やはり内容に懸念を持っているときに使用される言葉です)

これらのことを考えると ご質問者(パンダ君)の段階では「たがる/たがっている」は 第三者に使う言葉であると説明するのが分かりやすいと考えました。

*****
蛇足:トニーちゃんは泣きながら家に帰り、やけ酒(shochu)をあおり(呷り)ました。


赴L再考による編集: 無礼→不躾 + (し) 等   パンダ, natembさん。お役に立てたなら、何よりです^^)。 芝公園さんは大丈夫?
Last edited by coco on Wed 03.01.2006 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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