ここでじゃありません？

[tanuki]

Hello, people!

So, I was listening to this tape and there was a conversation where they repeated many times things like:

ここでじゃありません。

Now, I know that じゃ is short for では, so that would be:

ここでではありません。

Which doesn't make sense to me, because I thought you weren't supposed to use a particle at the end if you were going to use です or some other conjugation, because there is already the particle で in です and the like, so you would be using two particles together:

ここでではありません。

I thought in that case you were supposed to use あります and the like, so it should be:

ここでありません。

So, what's the matter here?

I'm sorry if this doesn't make much sense; I'm tired and I'm going to sleep now. Good night...

[Oyaji]

I think the ここで is what's throwing you off. If the conversation were simply:
"Here?" "No, not here." it would be:
「ここですか」「いいえ、ここじゃありません」

Saying ここで stresses that we're talking about doing something here. で is the location marker.

「６時に夕食を食べます」 "We will eat dinner at 6:00."
「ここでですか」"Will we do it here?"
「いいえ、ここでじゃありません」"No, we won't do it (eat) here." There is a little mental break between ここで and じゃありません.

(I could probably give you a much better answer if I knew the context. )

[tanuki]

The context is exactly what you wrote, they were discussing where to have lunch, and they went like:

どこで？
ここでじゃありません。ホテルで。

And so on.

So, would ここでありません be wrong? Is the じゃ/では mandatory?
I understand what you wrote, I had apparently created a bad concept about です and his friends. Man, it's going to take me some time to change it.

[keatonatron]

tanuki wrote:
So, would ここでありません be wrong? Is the じゃ/では mandatory?

ここでありません doesn't make sense.

You have two choices:

ここではありません　(or ここじゃありません) "not here"

or

ここでじゃありません "not HERE (but somewhere else)"

[Oyaji]

I think you are making it harder than you need to. Remember back when you first began learning Japanese. You probably learned that the negative form of 「です」 is 「ではありません」. That's just the way it is.

「これはペンです」This is a pen.
「これはペンではありません」This is not a pen.
(I don't mean to seem patronizing, it's just that sometimes returning to basics can be helpful.)

The 「ここで」 is a bit of a special case, but the basic grammar is still the same.

[two_heads_talking]

basics basics basics..

what ruins big business? they forget the basics..

what ruins students of japanese, they forget the basics and muddy the water with have thought out ideas and reasons.. lol, oh well..

[richvh]

basics basics basics..

what ruins big business? they forget the basics..

what ruins students of japanese, they forget the basics and muddy the water with have thought out ideas and reasons.. lol, oh well..

Speaking of basics, the basics of English include proper capitalization and punctuation.

[tanuki]

Oyaji wrote:
I think you are making it harder than you need to. Remember back when you first began learning Japanese. You probably learned that the negative form of 「です」 is 「ではありません」. That's just the way it is.

「これはペンです」This is a pen.
「これはペンではありません」This is not a pen.

Of course I know that! My problem wasn't in not knowing how to conjugate です. You probably misunderstood me because I didn't explain it well, please let me explain better what my problem was:

All the books, websites, etc. that I read about this topic never explained to me that it was possible to have a particle just before the です, ではありません, etc. All the examples they showed were either:

with nouns: これはペンです
or with i/na-adjectives: このペンは青いです。/このペンはきれいです。
or other similar things, like question words: 猫はどこですか。

Later, when they were explaining other verbs, they showed examples like:

田中さんは台所にいます。, showing that there could be particles before います.
---

Now, look at this. They showed this example:

テレビはどこにありますか。
テーブルの上です。/テーブルの上にあります。(showing that です is equivalent to にあります in this case, which convinced me further that there must be no particle before です and that, should a particle be there, the verb to use was あります, not です)
----

Later, I learned that です is just a contraction of であります. So, I thought: "apparently, the reason why there must be no particle before です or its conjugations is that で at the beginning, which is a particle". No one told me this, I just thought it because it was the conclusion I could reach to explain the absence of particles before です.

Now, whole months went by and I never heard that was wrong, so I accepted it as true. Until yesterday, that is.

So, that was my confusion. It's terrible to realize that something you thought was true for months was really wrong, but I'll just have to get used to it, I guess.

[two_heads_talking]

richvh wrote:

basics basics basics..

what ruins big business? they forget the basics..

what ruins students of japanese, they forget the basics and muddy the water with have thought out ideas and reasons.. lol, oh well..

Speaking of basics, the basics of English include proper capitalization and punctuation.

yep! we all have faults.. either using all caps at work or not on the forums seems to be mine..

[keatonatron]

You should really calm down! (Tanuki)

The ~でではありません you are seeing is not standard.

It's similar to "これはいいじゃない？" -- In standard, plain grammar, this is not supposed to be correct, but people have used it so much that way that it has become a common saying.

However, with your example, it's not common. I hadn't heard it until you posted it, and until Oyaji pointed out how it could be used, I was sure you misheard something.

People tend to make a lot of allowances with じゃない. Originally, it was all ではありません, but nowadays it's kind of become it's own word meaning "not" (and as a question, "isn't it...?"). Sometimes people even throw it after other verbs. You shouldn't get in the habit of speaking like this, just know it's there.

Ａ：田中さんはどこ？
Ｂ：もう帰ったじゃないですか？

Ａ：このセーター、どう思う？
Ｂ：あ、かわいいじゃない？

[Oyaji]

tanuki wrote:
Now, look at this. They showed this example:

テレビはどこにありますか。
テーブルの上です。/テーブルの上にあります。(showing that です is equivalent to にあります in this case,

There is the problem. Those are two different expressions - they are not equivalent. あります is the verb ある, to exist. 「テーブルの上です。」= "On the table." 「テーブルの上にあります。」 = " It is (exists) on the table."

Let's look at another sentence:

東京に行くのは誰ですか。
僕です。／僕が行きます。 Obviously です and 行きます are not equivalent.

「である」 and 「にある」 are two different things.

Having said that, basically you are correct in your assumption. As a rule particles are not used consecutively and です is not used after particles. You found an exception.


Here are a couple more nonstandard examples similar yours.
「彼を招待しよう。」
「太郎さんをですか？」
「太郎さんをじゃなくて、次郎さんを。」

「買い物に行くよ」
「お母さんが？」
「お母さんがじゃありません。みんなが。」

[coco]

Tanukiさん。こんにちは。
「ここで、じゃありません」is used in this kind of context.　like…

(in the Conference　room１)
A：この部屋で企画会議をするのですか？　→　ここで企画会議をするの？
B：いいえ。企画会議は隣にある第二会議室で会議を行うそうです。→ いいえ。、企画会議は隣です。
A：そうですか?　第一会議室で会議すると聞いていますが。→　そうなの?　ここだって聞いてるけど…。
B : いいえ。違います。ここで、ではありません。ここは広報部が使う嵐閧ﾅすから。→ 「ここで」じゃありません。ここは広報が使んですから。
A : ……。

B denies A's assertion by using A's word.　( It is not considered that the style of B's speech (?) is polished/polite one.)

答えになりましたでしょうか?