Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - ここでじゃありません?

ここでじゃありません?

Have a Question about some Grammar point? Share it with the world!

ここでじゃありません?

Postby tanuki » Thu 07.13.2006 12:21 am

Hello, people!

So, I was listening to this tape and there was a conversation where they repeated many times things like:

ここでじゃありません。

Now, I know that じゃ is short for では, so that would be:

ここでではありません。

Which doesn't make sense to me, because I thought you weren't supposed to use a particle at the end if you were going to use です or some other conjugation, because there is already the particle で in です and the like, so you would be using two particles together:

ここでではありません。

I thought in that case you were supposed to use あります and the like, so it should be:

ここでありません。

So, what's the matter here?

I'm sorry if this doesn't make much sense; I'm tired and I'm going to sleep now. Good night...
僕の下手な日本語を直してください。
User avatar
tanuki
 
Posts: 2302
Joined: Sun 09.25.2005 9:00 pm
Location: South America

RE: ここでじゃありません?

Postby Oyaji » Thu 07.13.2006 1:08 am

I think the ここで is what's throwing you off. If the conversation were simply:
"Here?" "No, not here." it would be:
「ここですか」「いいえ、ここじゃありません」

Saying ここで stresses that we're talking about doing something here. で is the location marker.

「6時に夕食を食べます」 "We will eat dinner at 6:00."
「ここでですか」"Will we do it here?"
「いいえ、ここでじゃありません」"No, we won't do it (eat) here." There is a little mental break between ここで and じゃありません.

(I could probably give you a much better answer if I knew the context. ;) )
User avatar
Oyaji
 
Posts: 1334
Joined: Sun 04.30.2006 9:57 pm

RE: ここでじゃありません?

Postby tanuki » Thu 07.13.2006 8:44 am

The context is exactly what you wrote, they were discussing where to have lunch, and they went like:

どこで?
ここでじゃありません。ホテルで。

And so on.

So, would ここでありません be wrong? Is the じゃ/では mandatory?
I understand what you wrote, I had apparently created a bad concept about です and his friends. Man, it's going to take me some time to change it.
僕の下手な日本語を直してください。
User avatar
tanuki
 
Posts: 2302
Joined: Sun 09.25.2005 9:00 pm
Location: South America

RE: ここでじゃありません?

Postby keatonatron » Thu 07.13.2006 10:05 am

tanuki wrote:
So, would ここでありません be wrong? Is the じゃ/では mandatory?


ここでありません doesn't make sense.

You have two choices:

ここではありません (or ここじゃありません) "not here"

or

ここでじゃありません "not HERE (but somewhere else)"
User avatar
keatonatron
 
Posts: 4838
Joined: Sat 02.04.2006 3:31 am
Location: Tokyo (Via Seattle)
Native language: English
Gender: Male

RE: ここでじゃありません?

Postby Oyaji » Thu 07.13.2006 10:11 am

I think you are making it harder than you need to. Remember back when you first began learning Japanese. You probably learned that the negative form of 「です」 is 「ではありません」. That's just the way it is.

「これはペンです」This is a pen.
「これはペンではありません」This is not a pen.
(I don't mean to seem patronizing, it's just that sometimes returning to basics can be helpful.)

The 「ここで」 is a bit of a special case, but the basic grammar is still the same.
User avatar
Oyaji
 
Posts: 1334
Joined: Sun 04.30.2006 9:57 pm

RE: ここでじゃありません?

Postby two_heads_talking » Thu 07.13.2006 11:38 am

basics basics basics..

what ruins big business? they forget the basics..

what ruins students of japanese, they forget the basics and muddy the water with have thought out ideas and reasons.. lol, oh well..
Last edited by two_heads_talking on Thu 07.13.2006 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
two_heads_talking
 
Posts: 4137
Joined: Thu 04.06.2006 11:03 am
Native language: English

RE: ここでじゃありません?

Postby richvh » Thu 07.13.2006 11:47 am

basics basics basics..

what ruins big business? they forget the basics..

what ruins students of japanese, they forget the basics and muddy the water with have thought out ideas and reasons.. lol, oh well..


Speaking of basics, the basics of English include proper capitalization and punctuation.
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

RE: ここでじゃありません?

Postby tanuki » Thu 07.13.2006 12:38 pm

Oyaji wrote:
I think you are making it harder than you need to. Remember back when you first began learning Japanese. You probably learned that the negative form of 「です」 is 「ではありません」. That's just the way it is.

「これはペンです」This is a pen.
「これはペンではありません」This is not a pen.


:o Of course I know that! My problem wasn't in not knowing how to conjugate です. You probably misunderstood me because I didn't explain it well, please let me explain better what my problem was:

All the books, websites, etc. that I read about this topic never explained to me that it was possible to have a particle just before the です, ではありません, etc. All the examples they showed were either:

with nouns: これはペンです
or with i/na-adjectives: このペンは青いです。/このペンはきれいです。
or other similar things, like question words: 猫はどこですか。

Later, when they were explaining other verbs, they showed examples like:

田中さんは台所にいます。, showing that there could be particles before います.
---

Now, look at this. They showed this example:

テレビはどこにありますか。
テーブルの上です。/テーブルの上にあります。(showing that です is equivalent to にあります in this case, which convinced me further that there must be no particle before です and that, should a particle be there, the verb to use was あります, not です)
----

Later, I learned that です is just a contraction of であります. So, I thought: "apparently, the reason why there must be no particle before です or its conjugations is that で at the beginning, which is a particle". No one told me this, I just thought it because it was the conclusion I could reach to explain the absence of particles before です.

Now, whole months went by and I never heard that was wrong, so I accepted it as true. Until yesterday, that is.

So, that was my confusion. It's terrible to realize that something you thought was true for months was really wrong, but I'll just have to get used to it, I guess.
僕の下手な日本語を直してください。
User avatar
tanuki
 
Posts: 2302
Joined: Sun 09.25.2005 9:00 pm
Location: South America

RE: ここでじゃありません?

Postby two_heads_talking » Thu 07.13.2006 1:10 pm

richvh wrote:
basics basics basics..

what ruins big business? they forget the basics..

what ruins students of japanese, they forget the basics and muddy the water with have thought out ideas and reasons.. lol, oh well..


Speaking of basics, the basics of English include proper capitalization and punctuation.


yep! we all have faults.. either using all caps at work or not on the forums seems to be mine.. :o
User avatar
two_heads_talking
 
Posts: 4137
Joined: Thu 04.06.2006 11:03 am
Native language: English

RE: ここでじゃありません?

Postby keatonatron » Thu 07.13.2006 7:31 pm

You should really calm down! (Tanuki)

The ~でではありません you are seeing is not standard.

It's similar to "これはいいじゃない?" -- In standard, plain grammar, this is not supposed to be correct, but people have used it so much that way that it has become a common saying.

However, with your example, it's not common. I hadn't heard it until you posted it, and until Oyaji pointed out how it could be used, I was sure you misheard something.

People tend to make a lot of allowances with じゃない. Originally, it was all ではありません, but nowadays it's kind of become it's own word meaning "not" (and as a question, "isn't it...?"). Sometimes people even throw it after other verbs. You shouldn't get in the habit of speaking like this, just know it's there.

A:田中さんはどこ?
B:もう帰ったじゃないですか?

A:このセーター、どう思う?
B:あ、かわいいじゃない?
User avatar
keatonatron
 
Posts: 4838
Joined: Sat 02.04.2006 3:31 am
Location: Tokyo (Via Seattle)
Native language: English
Gender: Male

RE: ここでじゃありません?

Postby Oyaji » Thu 07.13.2006 8:20 pm

tanuki wrote:
Now, look at this. They showed this example:

テレビはどこにありますか。
テーブルの上です。/テーブルの上にあります。(showing that です is equivalent to にあります in this case,


There is the problem. Those are two different expressions - they are not equivalent. あります is the verb ある, to exist. 「テーブルの上です。」= "On the table." 「テーブルの上にあります。」 = " It is (exists) on the table."

Let's look at another sentence:

東京に行くのは誰ですか。
僕です。/僕が行きます。 Obviously です and 行きます are not equivalent.

「である」 and 「にある」 are two different things.

Having said that, basically you are correct in your assumption. As a rule particles are not used consecutively and です is not used after particles. You found an exception.


Here are a couple more nonstandard examples similar yours.
「彼を招待しよう。」
「太郎さんをですか?」
「太郎さんをじゃなくて、次郎さんを。」

「買い物に行くよ」
「お母さんが?」
「お母さんがじゃありません。みんなが。」
Last edited by Oyaji on Thu 07.13.2006 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Oyaji
 
Posts: 1334
Joined: Sun 04.30.2006 9:57 pm

RE: ここでじゃありません?

Postby coco » Fri 07.14.2006 4:55 pm

Tanukiさん。こんにちは。
「ここで、じゃありません」is used in this kind of context. like…

(in the Conference room1)
A:この部屋で企画会議をするのですか? → ここで企画会議をするの?
B:いいえ。企画会議は隣にある第二会議室で会議を行うそうです。→ いいえ。、企画会議は隣です。
A:そうですか? 第一会議室で会議すると聞いていますが。→ そうなの? ここだって聞いてるけど…。
B : いいえ。違います。ここで、ではありません。ここは広報部が使う嵐閧ナすから。→ 「ここで」じゃありません。ここは広報が使んですから。
A : ……。

B denies A's assertion by using A's word. ( It is not considered that the style of B's speech (?) is polished/polite one.)

答えになりましたでしょうか? :)
coco
 
Posts: 3061
Joined: Mon 05.30.2005 12:43 am
Location: 東京都
Native language: 日本語(Japanese)


Return to Grammar Questions and Problems

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests