Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - plain in the middle, polite in the end

plain in the middle, polite in the end

Have a Question about some Grammar point? Share it with the world!

plain in the middle, polite in the end

Postby tanuki » Mon 12.04.2006 9:11 pm

Hello, people!

I'm pretty positive there have been threads about this, but I couldn't find anything with the search function.

Let's suppose we are speaking in polite speech. What's the difference between putting plain forms and putting polite forms, in the middle of sentences?

For example (sorry if the sentences are clumsy):

中田さんが来なかったので、独りで食べに行きました。

vs.

中田さんが来ませんでしたので、独りで食べに行きました。

Is the difference merely stylistic? My guess is that the second one is more "literary", but it's just a guess.

Or maybe is one politer than the other? Is using plain in the middle acceptable in formal situations?

Thanks in advance for your responses. Bye!
Last edited by tanuki on Mon 12.04.2006 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
僕の下手な日本語を直してください。
User avatar
tanuki
 
Posts: 2302
Joined: Sun 09.25.2005 9:00 pm
Location: South America

RE: plain in the middle, polite in the end

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 12.04.2006 9:15 pm

The second sounds more polite, formal, stiff, gentle/feminine, etc. The first is more common than the second, even in polite speech.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

RE: plain in the middle, polite in the end

Postby flammable hippo » Mon 12.04.2006 9:20 pm

I thought that ので could only follow the short forms and that using it instead of から (which can go before short and long forms) automatically made the sentence polite. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Two muffins were baking in an oven. One turns to the other and says "sure is hot in here." The other replies "AH TALKING MUFFIN!"

二つのマフィンがオーブンで焼かれていた。片方のマフィンがもう一方のマフィンに向かって、"暑いね”と言った。すると、話しかけられたほうのマフィンは"アッ!喋るマフィンだ!”と驚いた。 :)
User avatar
flammable hippo
 
Posts: 885
Joined: Sun 03.19.2006 4:29 pm
Native language: English
Gender: Male

RE: plain in the middle, polite in the end

Postby tanuki » Mon 12.04.2006 9:33 pm

I think ので can follow both plain and polite forms.

Take a look at the example sentences in [url=www2.alc.co.jp/ejr/index.php?word_in=%82%CC%82%C5&word_in2=%82%A9%82%AB%82%AD%82%AF%82%B1&word_in3=PVawEWi72JXCKoa0Je]ALC[/url]. There's a fair ammount of polite + ので.
僕の下手な日本語を直してください。
User avatar
tanuki
 
Posts: 2302
Joined: Sun 09.25.2005 9:00 pm
Location: South America

RE: plain in the middle, polite in the end

Postby flammable hippo » Mon 12.04.2006 9:44 pm

Hhmmm...that's interesting. But I noticed that most of the examples had the short form come before node even though a few of them used the masu form. I think that might mean that masu + node isn't used too often? Except in extra formal speech? I think that might be like how the ra ending is supposed to follow the short form (tabetara, nondara, etc) but in much more polite speech can follow the long form (sumimasen, kimarimashitara, o yobi kudasai).

Sry, too lazy to use my input methoder.
Two muffins were baking in an oven. One turns to the other and says "sure is hot in here." The other replies "AH TALKING MUFFIN!"

二つのマフィンがオーブンで焼かれていた。片方のマフィンがもう一方のマフィンに向かって、"暑いね”と言った。すると、話しかけられたほうのマフィンは"アッ!喋るマフィンだ!”と驚いた。 :)
User avatar
flammable hippo
 
Posts: 885
Joined: Sun 03.19.2006 4:29 pm
Native language: English
Gender: Male

RE: plain in the middle, polite in the end

Postby tanuki » Mon 12.04.2006 9:46 pm

Wow, does that happen often? The polite + ra, I mean. Never heard of that!
僕の下手な日本語を直してください。
User avatar
tanuki
 
Posts: 2302
Joined: Sun 09.25.2005 9:00 pm
Location: South America

RE: plain in the middle, polite in the end

Postby datdo » Mon 12.04.2006 9:50 pm

*completely random*
When I saw the thread title I immediately thought of that oreos commercial...."squeezed in the middle/ smack dab in the middle...."
I'm glad I stopped watching tv...
datdo
 
Posts: 400
Joined: Mon 07.03.2006 11:24 pm

RE: plain in the middle, polite in the end

Postby flammable hippo » Mon 12.04.2006 9:51 pm

tanuki wrote:
Wow, does that happen often? The polite + ra, I mean. Never heard of that!


I'm not sure how often it happens, but I saw it used in my textbook and it says it's pretty formal so I guess you would use it when you are using other keigo forms like the o + verb stem + kudasai. My previous example was the sentence found in my book and it was said by a waiter to a customer. So most likely in some sort of business type situations you would use it. But that's just my theory.
Two muffins were baking in an oven. One turns to the other and says "sure is hot in here." The other replies "AH TALKING MUFFIN!"

二つのマフィンがオーブンで焼かれていた。片方のマフィンがもう一方のマフィンに向かって、"暑いね”と言った。すると、話しかけられたほうのマフィンは"アッ!喋るマフィンだ!”と驚いた。 :)
User avatar
flammable hippo
 
Posts: 885
Joined: Sun 03.19.2006 4:29 pm
Native language: English
Gender: Male

RE: plain in the middle, polite in the end

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 12.04.2006 9:52 pm

flammable hippo wrote:
I thought that ので could only follow the short forms


Considering the original of ので that should be the case, but masu/desu forms can go before it as well just to increase politeness.

Tanuki: the masu+ra forms are about as common as masu/desu+no de/kara.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

RE: plain in the middle, polite in the end

Postby flammable hippo » Mon 12.04.2006 10:12 pm

Hhhhmmm...just out of curiousity, Since there is a polite form + ra, is there a polite form + ba such as tabemaseba or nomimaseba? or is this phenomenon restricted to the ra 'if' form?
Two muffins were baking in an oven. One turns to the other and says "sure is hot in here." The other replies "AH TALKING MUFFIN!"

二つのマフィンがオーブンで焼かれていた。片方のマフィンがもう一方のマフィンに向かって、"暑いね”と言った。すると、話しかけられたほうのマフィンは"アッ!喋るマフィンだ!”と驚いた。 :)
User avatar
flammable hippo
 
Posts: 885
Joined: Sun 03.19.2006 4:29 pm
Native language: English
Gender: Male

RE: plain in the middle, polite in the end

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 12.04.2006 10:20 pm

I don't think it can be used with +ba.

masu + -te forms are possible too (i.e. 思いまして) but only to connect clauses, never with auxiliary verbs (i.e. 読みましてください is wrong).
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

RE: plain in the middle, polite in the end

Postby flammable hippo » Mon 12.04.2006 10:34 pm

Thanks for the info :D
Two muffins were baking in an oven. One turns to the other and says "sure is hot in here." The other replies "AH TALKING MUFFIN!"

二つのマフィンがオーブンで焼かれていた。片方のマフィンがもう一方のマフィンに向かって、"暑いね”と言った。すると、話しかけられたほうのマフィンは"アッ!喋るマフィンだ!”と驚いた。 :)
User avatar
flammable hippo
 
Posts: 885
Joined: Sun 03.19.2006 4:29 pm
Native language: English
Gender: Male

RE: plain in the middle, polite in the end

Postby Matsumoto_hideto » Mon 12.04.2006 11:14 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
The second sounds more polite, formal, stiff, gentle/feminine, etc. The first is more common than the second, even in polite speech.


I thought the same thing


2nd one sounded very "bookish"
自由た〜!!!
All things appear and disappear because of the concurrence of causes and conditions. Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else.
User avatar
Matsumoto_hideto
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue 03.15.2005 9:13 pm

RE: plain in the middle, polite in the end

Postby Tspoonami » Mon 12.04.2006 11:20 pm

I've been told many times not to use desu or -masu forms until the end of a sentence because they are both 'sentence enders...' I am now thoroughly confused :(
Sometimes I think that I'm afraid of thinking, and that scares me.
User avatar
Tspoonami
 
Posts: 837
Joined: Tue 08.22.2006 1:28 pm

RE: plain in the middle, polite in the end

Postby Matsumoto_hideto » Mon 12.04.2006 11:33 pm

Tspoonami wrote:
I've been told many times not to use desu or -masu forms until the end of a sentence because they are both 'sentence enders...' I am now thoroughly confused :(


well it depends you can use desu in the middle but I think you would use it in some kind of conjuctive phrase.
自由た〜!!!
All things appear and disappear because of the concurrence of causes and conditions. Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else.
User avatar
Matsumoto_hideto
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue 03.15.2005 9:13 pm

Next

Return to Grammar Questions and Problems

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests