Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - 程 with a verb phrase?

程 with a verb phrase?

Do you have a translation question?

程 with a verb phrase?

Postby Takoyaki » Mon 12.08.2008 1:36 am

This is from the 推定少女 song 席替え. The last line below I cannot seem to get the use of 程 here. Wikipedia says when it's used after an I-adjective there is supposed to be no verb, but this uses a verb...

Here is the context and what I think it means:



Women don't die from the sorrow
女は悲しみじゃ死なない

They cry not for themselves
自分のためじゃ泣かない

A love where we get along easily is unpleasant
気安く馴れ合う愛じゃイヤなの

If it's for you, I will be able to die
あなたのためだったら死ねる

Able to take in everything
全部 受け止められる

Make me ready for it
その覚悟をあたしにさせて

Enslave me till it hurts.
苦しい程虜にして



Full lyrics here.

Yoroshiku onegaishimasu!
User avatar
Takoyaki
 
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon 01.14.2008 12:26 am

Re: 程 with a verb phrase?

Postby becki_kanou » Mon 12.08.2008 2:27 am

程 means "to the extent that" or "to the degree that" or "so much that".

I'm not sure where that prohibition on verbs comes from. You'll often see 〜程〜して. Can you link to where you found that prohibition?
そうだ、嬉しいんだ、生きる喜び!
例え胸の傷が痛んでも。
User avatar
becki_kanou
 
Posts: 3402
Joined: Sat 04.19.2008 10:09 pm
Location: Hyogo, Japan
Skype chat: yes_becki
Native language: U.S. English, 米語
Gender: Female

Re: 程 with a verb phrase?

Postby Takoyaki » Mon 12.08.2008 2:38 am

Sure. It is in a footnote here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_particles#hodo.

I have found 程 to be a little tricky sometimes, as to the "direction" it is going. For example, in one song I translated there was a line "やさしい程、こわい" which seemed to mean "Your so nice, it's scary". It's like a little arrow in my mind pointing to the right. Whereas usually it's going in the other (to the left) direction like the non-adjective examples given in the above wikipedia link.

So this time with the 〜して is a first for me.

Personally I don't prefer wikipedia because they like to make things look complicated quite often. But I tend to check multiple sources for information when I can't sort something out right away.
User avatar
Takoyaki
 
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon 01.14.2008 12:26 am

Re: 程 with a verb phrase?

Postby becki_kanou » Mon 12.08.2008 4:27 am

Hmm... I've never heard that injunction before. I think 程 with a verb phrase is just fine, and the pattern that you gave an example of 〜程〜して( X me until Y ) is very common, especially in song lyrics. One of my favorite songs チェリー by スピッツ has the line 「ささやかな喜びを、つぶれる程抱きしめて」. Perhaps the wikipedia article is referring to something else, but nothing springs to mind at the moment.

BTW if you like J-pop lyrics, I highly recommend スピッツ. They have some of the strangest, most original lyrics I've heard and the singer/songwriter 草野正宗 (くさの まさむね) has a fantastic voice.
そうだ、嬉しいんだ、生きる喜び!
例え胸の傷が痛んでも。
User avatar
becki_kanou
 
Posts: 3402
Joined: Sat 04.19.2008 10:09 pm
Location: Hyogo, Japan
Skype chat: yes_becki
Native language: U.S. English, 米語
Gender: Female

Re: 程 with a verb phrase?

Postby Takoyaki » Mon 12.08.2008 5:24 am

I just checked チェリー out on You-Tube and I like the song. Thanks for the suggestion. :)

Me thinks it's safe to say I shouldn't worry about that wikipedia caveat. Who knows why it's there. Practical use is what's important to me. Arigatou!
User avatar
Takoyaki
 
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon 01.14.2008 12:26 am


Return to Translation Questions or Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests