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What does atta mean?

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Re: What does atta mean?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Tue 12.09.2008 2:50 pm

I did a quick look of some japanese bible I found through google; for the John verse they used 神々 for "gods" and 神 for "God". In the Genesis verse they just used 神様 for "gods" although I don't know what the original Hebrew says, so it's not necessarily profitable to look at differences between two translations of one source text.
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Re: What does atta mean?

Postby two_heads_talking » Tue 12.09.2008 3:00 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:I did a quick look of some japanese bible I found through google; for the John verse they used 神々 for "gods" and 神 for "God". In the Genesis verse they just used 神様 for "gods" although I don't know what the original Hebrew says, so it's not necessarily profitable to look at differences between two translations of one source text.



I found this online.. 34 「あなたがたの律法には、『わたしは言った。 「あなたがたは神神だ」』と書いてあるではありませんか。 35無効になることのありえない聖書が、神のことばを受けた人々を神々と呼んでいるのです。 36とすれば、父がきよめ分かち、この世にお遣わしになった者が、『わたしはの子だ』と言うのが、どうしてを汚すことになるのですか。

And as you mention kamikami is used for gods. Another thing to keep in mind is that most Japanese scripture (Bible here) is translated from German, which is translated from English (especially in the king James Version) so there are alot of translations to milk through there.. And that's just scratching the surface of how many times the original scripture was translated or modified before King James decided to use as many resources as he did.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to help out.. I could do a 3 hour talk about how the scriptures have many cases where translators have had cause to error. The King James version actually shows the cases where translators couldn't agree on the definition of a word and in that case, they italicized the word, showing it was the closest to the original that they could agree upon. Now, imagine us, all with differing levels of understanding of each language we know trying to do the same with some of the basic Japanese sentences.... lol, we each see it differently depending on experience, knowledge, education and level of expertise.
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Re: What does atta mean?

Postby nukemarine » Tue 12.09.2008 7:51 pm

Boils down to translating a translation which itself may be based off a translation of a translation (Hebrew/Greek to KJV, KJV to Japanese, Japanese back into English) and the problems that come with that. I checked the Christian bible (with side by side Japanese/English), and saw the items Yudan talked about.

Two heads talking, the Christian and Jewish gods should be referenced with lower case generic word "god" unless using the various proper names. We don't write Greek Gods or Norse Gods, but we can write Zeus or Thor.

Fortunately, the original question of this thread has been answered, so this thread drift makes for a more interesting reading while fulfilling original intent.
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Re: What does atta mean?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Tue 12.09.2008 7:57 pm

nukemarine wrote:Two heads talking, the Christian and Jewish gods should be referenced with lower case generic word "god"


That ignores standard English usage, though -- in clearly Christian contexts (and often outside of them), it is normal to use "God" as a proper name to refer to the deity of the Christian/Jewish religions, even by non-Christians.
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Re: What does atta mean?

Postby nukemarine » Tue 12.09.2008 8:06 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
nukemarine wrote:Two heads talking, the Christian and Jewish gods should be referenced with lower case generic word "god"


That ignores standard English usage, though -- in clearly Christian contexts (and often outside of them), it is normal to use "God" as a proper name to refer to the deity of the Christian/Jewish religions, even by non-Christians.


Didn't I write that? You didn't quote the part I say with exception of proper names. "God" is a proper name for the Christian god, as is Jesus, Jehovah, Yahweh, Lord, The Way, He, etc. The last one is a great example as it's a pronoun, but when the pronoun "he" is used in reference to the variant of the Chrisitian god, it's traditional to use "He" anywhere in the sentence. Yeah, confusion is bound to occur with "God" as god is a perfectly good English word with lots of uses.
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Re: What does atta mean?

Postby richvh » Tue 12.09.2008 8:25 pm

Well, ignoring the quagmire that is the Trinity, there is only one Christian and Jewish god, commonly referred to as God, (any other gods referred to in the Bible are gods of other people, not the God of the Old or the New Covenant) so writing "Jewish and Christian gods" is setting yourself up for misunderstanding.
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Re: What does atta mean?

Postby nukemarine » Tue 12.09.2008 8:37 pm

richvh wrote:Well, ignoring the quagmire that is the Trinity, there is only one Christian and Jewish god, commonly referred to as God, (any other gods referred to in the Bible are gods of other people, not the God of the Old or the New Covenant) so writing "Jewish and Christian gods" is setting yourself up for misunderstanding.


It's traditional to say they all worship the same god, to be sure, despite having different concepts of what they are worshipping. But to add on to what you say, it'll be a quagmire to go even further.

Still, it is good to get a better view on Japanese terminology for other culture's religion. One can look at how the Japanese treat Christmas to see that while they might use similar terms, the thought behind the terms (if the not practice) are wildly different.

Anyway, recently a lady asked me about why the Japanese are celebrating Christmas if they're not Christian. Best way I could put it was that they treat Christmas in much the same the US treats Halloween. While it had pagan roots, you don't have to be pagan to celebrate it. The Japanese are using the celebratory and fun aspect of Christmas.

My guess is the same goes with the Christian style wedding ceremonies. They copy the flair and look, not the substance.

Eh, the impact of Christian traditions on Japanese culture, 面白い、ね。
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Re: What does atta mean?

Postby furrykef » Tue 12.09.2008 9:39 pm

two_heads_talking wrote:And as you mention kamikami is used for gods.


Kamigami, rather. ;) (I know this for perhaps a slightly odd reason: "The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past" in the original Japanese is ゼルダの伝説 神々のトライフォース... who knew that video games could help you read the Bible?)

two_heads_talking wrote:You didn't quote the part I say with exception of proper names. "God" is a proper name for the Christian god, as is Jesus, Jehovah, Yahweh, Lord, The Way, He, etc.


Well, surely it's also a proper name in "And the word was with God and the word was God".

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Re: What does atta mean?

Postby SmileyDJingles » Wed 12.10.2008 12:22 am

Wow, what did I start? :wink:

Okay, I looked up some things in my Bible while I was at work today.

I have a bilingual bible. The English is the New International Version and the Japanese is the New Japanese Bible.

In my bible God is always 神 (かみ)

Other gods are always 神々(かみがみ)

Jesus is always イェス キリスト or just イェス

The Holy Spirit is always 聖霊 (せいれい)

The Christian God is a three in one God. One God three parts. The Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, and God the Father.
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Re: What does atta mean?

Postby two_heads_talking » Wed 12.10.2008 12:55 pm

SmileyDJingles wrote:Wow, what did I start? :wink:

Okay, I looked up some things in my Bible while I was at work today.

I have a bilingual bible. The English is the New International Version and the Japanese is the New Japanese Bible.

In my bible God is always 神 (かみ)

Other gods are always 神々(かみがみ)

Jesus is always イェス キリスト or just イェス

The Holy Spirit is always 聖霊 (せいれい).


yep..


SmileyDJingles wrote:The Christian God is a three in one God. One God three parts. The Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, and God the Father.


Nope.. That's more Catholic (Holy Trinity) than Christian. And of course, I'm not saying that Catholic is not Christian, but rather than that certain belief, one in three, three in one, is pretty particular to a certain religion.
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Re: What does atta mean?

Postby clay » Wed 12.10.2008 1:07 pm

two_heads_talking wrote:
SmileyDJingles wrote:The Christian God is a three in one God. One God three parts. The Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, and God the Father.


Nope.. That's more Catholic (Holy Trinity) than Christian. And of course, I'm not saying that Catholic is not Christian, but rather than that certain belief, one in three, three in one, is pretty particular to a certain religion.



Let's stay clear of doctrinal issues like the Trinity (see the rules, please) and stick to the matters of language. 8)
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Re: What does atta mean?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 12.10.2008 1:22 pm

I thought discussing it was OK as long as you are sticking to discussing facts (i.e. what religion believes what) rather than declaring which is correct or trying to debate which belief is better or worse.

Without making any value judgements whatsoever; just trying to clear up the factual issue of what denomination believes what about the Trinity:
It wouldn't be correct to say that the Trinity is a belief that all Christians hold (unless you use a circular definition of Christian), but a good portion of them do. It's not only a Catholic belief but common to Orthodox and most Protestant denominations too. As far as I know, the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses are the only major (modern) Christian denominations that do not believe in the Trinity.

More information can be found on Wikipedia and the like, for those interested.

(Inicidentally, the Japanese word for Trinity, 三位一体, shows up on the Kanji Kentei as a 4-ji jukugo.)
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Re: What does atta mean?

Postby two_heads_talking » Wed 12.10.2008 1:35 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:I thought discussing it was OK as long as you are sticking to discussing facts (i.e. what religion believes what) rather than declaring which is correct or trying to debate which belief is better or worse.

Without making any value judgements whatsoever; just trying to clear up the factual issue of what denomination believes what about the Trinity:
It wouldn't be correct to say that the Trinity is a belief that all Christians hold (unless you use a circular definition of Christian), but a good portion of them do. It's not only a Catholic belief but common to Orthodox and most Protestant denominations too. As far as I know, the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses are the only major (modern) Christian denominations that do not believe in the Trinity.

More information can be found on Wikipedia and the like, for those interested.

(Inicidentally, the Japanese word for Trinity, 三位一体, shows up on the Kanji Kentei as a 4-ji jukugo.)


Hmm, IIRC the Protestant, especially Baptist and Lutheran denominations, left for a few reasons and the God Head (Holy Trinity) were one of those reasons.. Plus let's not forget than there a great deal of fundamentalist Protestants that quite frankly Don't believe in anything Save Jesus Christ, as they believe his is the God of World and as such, God the Father is Jesus Christ too.. That pretty much puts a kaibosh on them believing in the Trinity.. Of course, I'm stretching outside the "normal Christian realm" even though fundamentalists are Christians..
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Re: What does atta mean?

Postby richvh » Wed 12.10.2008 1:44 pm

I don't know about the Lutherans or Baptists, but as a scion of the Reformed Church in America, I know the Calvinists hold to the Nicene Creed and thus to the Trinity.

I believe that the Abyssinian, Coptic and Nestorian Churches are surviving branches of the Monophysite branch of Christianity, who have different ideas about the nature of Christ.
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Re: What does atta mean?

Postby clay » Wed 12.10.2008 1:48 pm

I thought discussing it was OK as long as you are sticking to discussing facts (i.e. what religion believes what) rather than declaring which is correct or trying to debate which belief is better or worse.


Fair enough.
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