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ikazu

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ikazu

Postby mongol800 » Tue 12.30.2008 1:25 am

just listening to this song was wondering what this meant..


近道なく簡単いかず。

what is ikazu?

not the short way... easy ikazu--
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Re: ikazu

Postby mongol800 » Tue 12.30.2008 1:29 am

違う空の下歩いている

walking differently under the heavens?
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Re: ikazu

Postby Sairana » Tue 12.30.2008 4:19 am

~zu means 'without'. It's attached to the verb 'iku'.

'chigau' in your second line directly modifies 'sky', not 'walking'.

Songs suck for study material. Although, if you disagree, I hear Tony could use some insight on Hotel California. Sigh.
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Re: ikazu

Postby mongol800 » Tue 12.30.2008 2:31 pm

Sairana wrote:~zu means 'without'. It's attached to the verb 'iku'.

'chigau' in your second line directly modifies 'sky', not 'walking'.

Songs suck for study material. Although, if you disagree, I hear Tony could use some insight on Hotel California. Sigh.



walking under different heavens....

so when adding zu to mean without you change iku to ika?

another example tsukau to tsukawazu?
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Re: ikazu

Postby two_heads_talking » Tue 12.30.2008 3:20 pm

mongol800 wrote:just listening to this song was wondering what this meant..


近道なく簡単いかず。

what is ikazu?

not the short way... easy ikazu--


I'd say the meaning is "not the simplest shortcut."
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Re: ikazu

Postby richvh » Tue 12.30.2008 4:39 pm

mongol800 wrote:
Sairana wrote:~zu means 'without'. It's attached to the verb 'iku'.

Just a little correction: -zu is equivalent to -naku "not"; it's -zuni that is equivalent to -naide "without".

'chigau' in your second line directly modifies 'sky', not 'walking'.

Songs suck for study material. Although, if you disagree, I hear Tony could use some insight on Hotel California. Sigh.



walking under different heavens....

so when adding zu to mean without you change iku to ika?

another example tsukau to tsukawazu?


-zu (being a suffix of negation) always attaches to the -nai stem
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Re: ikazu

Postby Sairana » Tue 12.30.2008 9:23 pm

richvh wrote:
mongol800 wrote:
Sairana wrote:~zu means 'without'. It's attached to the verb 'iku'.

Just a little correction: -zu is equivalent to -naku "not"; it's -zuni that is equivalent to -naide "without".

-zu (being a suffix of negation) always attaches to the -nai stem


Gwa... sometimes I really hate Japanese. *cry*

Thanks, though. ^_^
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Re: ikazu

Postby keatonatron » Wed 12.31.2008 1:12 am

Sairana wrote:
richvh wrote:
Sairana wrote:~zu means 'without'. It's attached to the verb 'iku'.

Just a little correction: -zu is equivalent to -naku "not"; it's -zuni that is equivalent to -naide "without".

-zu (being a suffix of negation) always attaches to the -nai stem


Gwa... sometimes I really hate Japanese. *cry*

Thanks, though. ^_^


Don't feel bad!

...Because you aren't wrong.

-zu and -zuni are the same thing. The first just has ni left out.

There is a small difference between -nakute and -naide, but there isn't really any difference between -zu and -zuni.

(At least that's what I understand. Rich, if you have any evidence to show otherwise, please explain!)
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Re: ikazu

Postby richvh » Wed 12.31.2008 2:00 am


[助動][ざら|ざり|○|ざる|ざれ|ざれ]活用語の未然形に付き、断定的な否定判断を表す。ない。ぬ。


ずに
[連語]《打消しの助動詞「ず」の連用形+助詞「に」》…(し)ないで。「失敗を気にせ―仕事をしなさい」
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Re: ikazu

Postby keatonatron » Thu 01.01.2009 2:22 am

Hmmm.... I get the feeling the ず definition is mostly talking about old grammar that isn't used much anymore. Notice how the blurb at the bottom says that in the middle ages final ず was replaced by ぬ? (although since "が用いられた" can mean either "was used" or "could be used" I'm not sure if the change was absolute)

In any case, just as how

帰ったときに電話しました
and
帰ったとき、電話しました (comma optional)

both mean the exact same thing, it is possible for ず to not be the archaic sentence ender, but simply ずに with the に left out. :wink: Therefore, it would be detrimental to think that に is always required to create the meaning of "without".
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Re: ikazu

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Thu 01.01.2009 9:35 am

I agree with richvh, personally -- I don't think "zu" can mean "without" if the "ni" is not there, even in modern Japanese.
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Re: ikazu

Postby NocturnalOcean » Thu 01.01.2009 10:03 am

Yeah, I think Richvh and Yudan Taiteki is correct here. And you can also confirm it yourself if you read the dictionary of basic and intermediate grammar.

Also I want to stress that using the particle に with まで、うち、とき and a few more, is not irrelevant, it has certain nuances.

「Aときに、B」は、Bが行われた時点をAに特定するために使われる。
「Aとき、B」は、「-ときに」のように時点を特定しない場合に使われる。

Which means the following.

Ex.1

この薬は頭が痛くなったときに、飲んでください。 In this sentence including the に is very important.

Ex.2

私が帰るとき、雨が降っていました。 Using に here would be incorrect.
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Re: ikazu

Postby keatonatron » Thu 01.01.2009 1:43 pm

Now that I think about it, you're write about 時, but I till feel the same way about ず.
I did a simple google search for "せず" to get some examples.

"無理せず楽しで": Are you saying this sentence should mean "Don't over do it, have fun!" and not "Have fun without overdoing it"?

Even better, should "[software name]が予期せず終了する" mean "It doesn't warn me, just quits" and not "it quits without warning"?
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Re: ikazu

Postby NocturnalOcean » Thu 01.01.2009 3:01 pm

Yes, exactly. Just because you can rewrite them to without in English, doesn't mean it is the correct translation of ず。
And I also do believe ず includes "and" in it when it is a replacement for なく as in your examples.
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Re: ikazu

Postby keatonatron » Thu 01.01.2009 3:19 pm

You learn something new everyday... and sometimes it's something you should have learned years ago :D
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