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それを覚えるのが

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それを覚えるのが

Postby space_bubble » Thu 04.02.2009 10:04 pm

My apology for the inaccurate post Subject, but I'm just unable to pinpoint what it is about this sentence that makes me not understand it completely.

人に何かあげる時、客に食事を出す時、自分の子供の先生にあった時、そのほかのどういう時に何と行ったらよいかが決まっていて、それを覚えるのが、大事な社会教育だと言ってもよいだろう。

I get the real easy part, which is "When you give people something, when you offer a guest a meal, when you've met your own children's teachers,..."

It's the rest of the sentence following those first three clauses that is throwing me off. I've read it over and over again, but I just can't seem to come up with a reading I'm completely confident with.

My best try is the following:

"...what is appropriate to say is determined by other such occasions, and learning when it is appropriate to say them is an important part of (one's) social education."

:?:
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Re: それを覚えるのが

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Thu 04.02.2009 10:17 pm

space_bubble wrote:My apology for the inaccurate post Subject, but I'm just unable to pinpoint what it is about this sentence that makes me not understand it completely.

人に何かあげる時、客に食事を出す時、自分の子供の先生にあった時、そのほかのどういう時に何と行ったらよいかが決まっていて、それを覚えるのが、大事な社会教育だと言ってもよいだろう。

I get the real easy part, which is "When you give people something, when you offer a guest a meal, when you've met your own children's teachers,..."


I would just translate that as "when you meet your children's teachers"; the Japanese is perfective but I think what they mean is the time when you have met them and are talking to them.

It's the rest of the sentence following those first three clauses that is throwing me off. I've read it over and over again, but I just can't seem to come up with a reading I'm completely confident with.

My best try is the following:

"...what is appropriate to say is determined by other such occasions, and learning when it is appropriate to say them is an important part of (one's) social education."


You've got the first, and last part, but not the middle:
そのほかのどういう時に何と行ったらよいかが決まっていて
..and in other such situations, there are certain set things you should do (literally "what is good for you to do is decided [by social standards]")

The それ in the next part refers to these 決まっている social customs. The final 言ってもよいだろう literally means "it's probably OK to say this" but that's just kind of a filler phrase to make the claim sound less blunt.

You may know this already, but 行った in this case is おこなった (do) rather than いった (go).
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Re: それを覚えるのが

Postby space_bubble » Thu 04.02.2009 10:49 pm

>>>"I would just translate that as "when you meet your children's teachers"; the Japanese is perfective but I think what they mean is the time when you have met them and are talking to them."

Duly noted.

>>>"You've got the first, and last part, but not the middle:
そのほかのどういう時に何と行ったらよいかが決まっていて
..and in other such situations, there are certain set things you should do (literally "what is good for you to do is decided [by social standards]")

The それ in the next part refers to these 決まっている social customs. The final 言ってもよいだろう literally means "it's probably OK to say this" but that's just kind of a filler phrase to make the claim sound less blunt.

You may know this already, but 行った in this case is おこなった (do) rather than いった (go)."

Your explanations really cleared up my questions. There were a couple items in there I had been clueless about (おこなった was brand new vocabulary for me, and I just flat out failed to recognize the ~てもいい sentence pattern in 言ってもよいだろう). I am writing the information you provided in my notes now, so I don't forget it. I really appreciate those clarifications.
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Re: それを覚えるのが

Postby Oyaji » Sat 04.04.2009 11:17 am

I can't help but think that the middle part is a henkan miss and should be 「何と言ったらいいか」. Using 行う there seems odd to me.
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Re: それを覚えるのが

Postby Hyperworm » Sat 04.04.2009 1:54 pm

Oyaji wrote:I can't help but think that the middle part is a henkan miss and should be 「何と言ったらいいか」. Using 行う there seems odd to me.
I thought this, too.
何と行(おこな)ったらいいか doesn't feel like that common a structure to me.
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Re: それを覚えるのが

Postby becki_kanou » Sat 04.04.2009 11:59 pm

I'll third that. I thought it was probably a 変換ミス for 言った as well.
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Re: それを覚えるのが

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sun 04.05.2009 9:38 am

Yeah, that makes sense. I was actually going to try explaining why と was used in 何と行ったら but I didn't understand it myself so I assumed it was just some idiom I wasn't familiar with -- I guess I should have figured out it was a 変換ミス.
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