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ということを ?

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ということを ?

Postby space_bubble » Thu 04.16.2009 8:46 am

The sentence I am trying to get a handle on is the second sentence (and the first is only for context):
ホストファミリーの人たちと日本語で話すことができるから、会話も上手になる。留学希望者の中には、東京で勉強したがる者が多いが、東京は特に住宅事情が悪いので、ホームステイがしにくいということを忘れるべきでわない。

I can't quite pinpoint what it is in the (second) sentence which is throwing me off. It might be the ということを string. I find ということは in my particle dictionary, and I don't know if it has any applicability at all about why I don't completely understand the sentence, but I couldn't relate that to ということを. I don't know if they're grammatically very different, but my real question is on the reading of the (second) sentence.

It might be most straightforward if I submit my readings for review, their being either "Among the people who wish to study abroad, many of them want to study in Tokyo, but since housing conditions in Tokyo are bad, doing homestay is something you should forget." or "Among the people who wish to study abroad, many of them want to study in Tokyo, but even though housing conditions in Tokyo are bad, doing homestay is not something you should forget." and ask which (if either) is correct.
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Re: ということを ?

Postby spin13 » Thu 04.16.2009 9:26 am

space_bubble wrote:ホストファミリーの人たちと日本語で話すことができるから、会話も上手になる。留学希望者の中には、東京で勉強したがる者が多いが、東京は特に住宅事情が悪いので、ホームステイがしにくいということを忘れるべきでない。

~という identifies the specific type of こと, or "thing," while を makes that thing the object of 忘れる. While ~ということは or ~というのは might be listed as a set phrase to introduce a topic, it's not much more than the sum of it's parts. Depending on the sentence, pretty much any particle can come after ~ということ.

space_bubble wrote:"Among the people who wish to study abroad, many of them want to study in Tokyo, but since housing conditions in Tokyo are bad, doing homestay is something you should forget."

While your first translation is close and gets the basic point across, you missed that しにくい means "hard to do" and べき here means "should." The last phrase is, "You should not forget that it is hard to do a homestay in Tokyo."
You're probably not as smart as you think.
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Re: ということを ?

Postby space_bubble » Thu 04.16.2009 1:34 pm

spin13 wrote:~という identifies the specific type of こと, or "thing," while を makes that thing the object of 忘れる. While ~ということは or ~というのは might be listed as a set phrase to introduce a topic, it's not much more than the sum of it's parts. Depending on the sentence, pretty much any particle can come after ~ということ.

While your first translation is close and gets the basic point across, you missed that しにくい means "hard to do" and べき here means "should." The last phrase is, "You should not forget that it is hard to do a homestay in Tokyo."


Excellent answer. So it does turn out that that pesky ということ pattern was what gave me a bit of trouble, but your information about that used with a negative answers my question totally, and I will put this in my notes so I don't lose it or forget it.

ご説明ありがとうございます。
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Re: ということを ?

Postby Bucko » Sat 04.18.2009 6:27 am

ということを is not the thing you should be concerned about, it's the role of という itself. What word occures after という depends on the thing being defined, it could be こと or it could be any other noun.

That said, という is often used in very long sentences to mark the end of a noun modifying sentence, coming just before the noun that is being modified (in this case that noun is こと). Japanese uses long sentences and long drawn out relative clauses often (more than English), so it can get confusing for the listener to work out how the pieces of a particular sentence break up. In the case of ホームステイがしにくいということを忘れるべきでわない it's sort of acting as an extra highlighter to the thing (こと) that should not be forgotten (i.e. ホームステイがしにくい). There are three verbs in that sentence する (in the form of しにくい), 忘れる, and である (in the form of ではない), so slipping a という in there before the modified noun makes it clearer to the listener of the object that should not be forgotten (which in this case ホームステイがしにくいこと).

Also, I think it would be perfectly fine to leave the という out of this sentence as it's not too confusing as to where the pieces of the sentence lie.
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Re: ということを ?

Postby kurisuto » Sat 04.18.2009 8:38 am

Bucko wrote:Also, I think it would be perfectly fine to leave the という out of this sentence as it's not too confusing as to where the pieces of the sentence lie.


In fact I think in this instance it's necessary to use "to iu", here's an interesting quote (which happen to come from one of my previous lessons) :

「節+という+名詞」の形で使われる。名詞が、話・意見・知識・情報・意味な
どを表すとき、「という」が必要になる。節は名詞の内容を表す。
[...]
②形や決まりばかり考えていたら、スポーツを楽しむということを忘れてしまう。


But maybe in this case Japanese sometimes drop the "to iu" part in casual language, I don't know. (as a side note, I have some problems understanding the use of 形 in this sample sentence. Is it simply "form" as in "formal" ?)

(edit : typo fixed)
Last edited by kurisuto on Sat 04.18.2009 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ということを ?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sat 04.18.2009 8:58 am

形 there just means "form" as in "grammatical form/structure".

Also I agree that という is better in the original sentence although I don't know that it's strictly necessary.
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Re: ということを ?

Postby kurisuto » Sat 04.18.2009 9:04 am

In fact I was talking about the sample sentence ("形や決まりばかり考えていたら").
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Re: ということを ?

Postby Bucko » Sat 04.18.2009 10:12 am

In fact I think in this instance it's necessary to use "koto", here's an interesting quote (which happen to come from one of my previous lessons) :


Yes, of course it's necessary to use 'koto', but not 'to iu'. The sentence could just read ~しにくいことを~
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Re: ということを ?

Postby kurisuto » Sat 04.18.2009 10:21 am

My bad, I wanted to say "to iu". Really, from my own experience I can't say whether it's really necessary, but at least that's what my teachers seem to think.
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