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PONY AUDITON Translation Please.

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Re: PONY AUDITON Translation Please.

Postby Gundaetiapo » Sat 05.09.2009 11:15 pm

Harisenbon wrote:You know, I think there should be a ban on online dictionaries JUST because they allow copy-paste.
While they are easy to look up words, they make it TOO easy to do so, and I find that most people don't retain the words nearly as well as when they look them up in a paper dictionary. -- There's just something about spending that time looking for a single word, and concentrating on that word that makes it all the easier to remember in the future.


This is not my experience either, and to me sounds a little masochistic.
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Re: PONY AUDITON Translation Please.

Postby Sairana » Sun 05.10.2009 6:09 am

Eh.. it's a common educational theory. The harder you have to work at something, the more likely you are to not forget it. It's why when my children ask me for homework help, I don't just hand them the answer, I attempt to provide hints and guidance until they come up with the answer themselves.

Someone is more likely to remember the words they're looking up, particularly obscure ones that take a while to find. But I think for everyday words you're going to hear or read a lot, there wouldn't be a noticeable benefit because the reinforcement will happen every time you encounter the word.

If there weren't electronic dictionaries, I think there'd be a bigger emphasis for students to learn the radicals and how kanji fit together a little more deeply than most students do. I'll have to admit, I don't know most of the radicals in all their forms, and would be completely unable to use a paper dictionary if I needed to. I think maybe people like me is what Harisenbon's statement is mostly directed at. Could be wrong, though. :P
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Re: PONY AUDITON Translation Please.

Postby furrykef » Sun 05.10.2009 7:42 am

Sairana wrote:Eh.. it's a common educational theory. The harder you have to work at something, the more likely you are to not forget it. It's why when my children ask me for homework help, I don't just hand them the answer, I attempt to provide hints and guidance until they come up with the answer themselves.


I think the essential motivation behind that is different, though. When you look up a word in a paper dictionary instead of a computer, it doesn't do anything for you except make you expend more effort (well, it also helps you learn how to do it again next time, but if you always carry an electronic dictionary, that's not exactly a need). However, when you're not given a direct answer in class, it does more than that: it teaches you something about problem solving. And the value of general problem-solving skills is not to be underestimated... most people are poor at it, and I'm not that great at it myself. Many of the great innovations in the world are discovered by accident, but the rest are discovered by people with a sharp wit.

Now, if it takes you half an hour or something to find a word in a paper dictionary, then that word probably will stick with you forever just because the process will have driven you so freakin' nuts that your mind will start to obsess over it. But I think in that case the reward is disporportionately small compared to the effort you put into it. I could accomplish nearly the same result by putting the word into my SRS and more likely spending only a few minutes in my entire life on that word. In that case the memorization wouldn't be immediate -- it might take a few weeks before it's really hammered into my brain -- but I don't think that's really so important in the long run.

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Re: PONY AUDITON Translation Please.

Postby AJBryant » Sun 05.10.2009 2:10 pm

People who have only used electronic dictionaries have never been able to experience the pleasure of "flipping through" a REAL dictionary, randomly running across a word and going, "Hey, that's a good one!" Likewise, they lack the ability to scan up and down the same page they are looking on, finding connecting words and similar ideas.

It is the PRECISION of the electronic dictionary makes it a soulless tool -- useful for the immediate search at hand, but little else.


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Re: PONY AUDITON Translation Please.

Postby Gundaetiapo » Sun 05.10.2009 2:26 pm

Sairana wrote:Eh.. it's a common educational theory. The harder you have to work at something, the more likely you are to not forget it.


The notion that imposing needless hardship improves memory would lead to absurd pedogogical methods.

EDIT:

For the record, I have used paper dictionaries quite a bit. With the first, the front cover fell off completely and the pages came off like sticky notes. The second is quite tattered but retired in favor of the Kodansha's furigana J-E dictionary. This third one has much of the dye worn off of the cover and it and has tape on the binding since its front cover too started to separate.

Nowadays I use WWWJDIC most of the time, with some ancillary support from the Space ALC J-E, Goo J-J, and Yahoo J-J. On airlines and in waiting rooms I often use the Kodansha's furigana J-E I mentioned and a manga with furigana. While looking up words in paper dictionaries is only slightly slower than electronic, with kanji there is a large time penalty for using hardcopy over the IME pad. At least in my experience.
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Re: PONY AUDITON Translation Please.

Postby astaroth » Sun 05.10.2009 3:11 pm

AJBryant wrote:It is the PRECISION of the electronic dictionary makes it a soulless tool -- useful for the immediate search at hand, but little else.

Honestly I'm experiencing the opposite: I'm using paper dictionaries more often than electronic ones because the number of outputs are way too many. I feel a paper dictionary more precise than an electronic one.
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Re: PONY AUDITON Translation Please.

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sun 05.10.2009 4:45 pm

Considering most electronic dictionaries are simply electronic collections of actual paper dictionaries, there shouldn't be any difference in precision. Most of the web dictionaries are the same way; WWWJDIC is the only one I know of that was not based on an already-published paper dictionary.

(As for electronic dictionaries, most of them show surrounding entries as you type in the word you want, so it is possible to browse. I never considered that a very important thing to do, though, considering I generally want to maximize my time with the text I'm reading and minimize my time spent with the dictionary.)
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Re: PONY AUDITON Translation Please.

Postby astaroth » Sun 05.10.2009 4:56 pm

sorry my bad ... with "electronic dictionary" I was thinking "web dictionary" and with "web dictionary" I was thinking WWWJDIC ...
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Re: PONY AUDITON Translation Please.

Postby Sairana » Sun 05.10.2009 5:10 pm

Gundaetiapo wrote:
Sairana wrote:Eh.. it's a common educational theory. The harder you have to work at something, the more likely you are to not forget it.


The notion that imposing needless hardship improves memory would lead to absurd pedogogical methods.


You've twisted my statement into something it's not. I'm not discussing improving memory, I'll restate for clarity: The harder you have to work at something, the less likely you are to forget it.

Doing something difficult requires more focus and attention to detail than doing something you find is easy. As a matter of course, the extra effort given to the difficult task is going to result in a more memorable experience. In addition to being more focused, doing something difficult almost always elicits an emotional response, whether it be frustration, anger, annoyance, or elation (upon completion). For whatever reason (I'm no expert) information that's attached to some kind of emotion is more easily retrieved later, and stored for a longer amount of time.

Try something... if there's a word you constantly misspell, try writing it on a piece of paper with your non-dominant hand. If you consider it easy to write with both hands, then write it backwards, or upside down, or both. In other words, do something with the word that is hard for you to do. Write it with a paintbrush held between your toes, even. You will remember it a lot better than just correcting it using a spell-checker.
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Re: PONY AUDITON Translation Please.

Postby kurisuto » Sun 05.10.2009 6:22 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:As for electronic dictionaries, most of them show surrounding entries as you type in the word you want, so it is possible to browse.


Indeed : I don't know how "regular" 電子辞書 work, but as for the DS's "Raku biki jiten" you have on the lower screen a list of words that begin with the same kanji/kana as what you typed.

On the other hand, I can understand what Tony meant : when I was young(er), I used to take my French dictionary (or even my En-Fr one), open it on a random page and just read. The great thing was that I didn't know the definitions of the words hereby found, but also I didn't even know how the word would begin or sound like. It's that "surprise factor" that's hard to get with electronic dictionaries. (now, I still prefer electronic over paper ones : size/weight+speed+hand-writing recognition+E-J-E+J-J+lots of sample sentences+no degradation = :mrgreen: )
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Re: PONY AUDITON Translation Please.

Postby furrykef » Sun 05.10.2009 6:34 pm

Well, if you like to just browse a dictionary for fun, then of course it makes sense to buy a paper one. You don't need to know how to look up words to do that. :)
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Re: PONY AUDITON Translation Please.

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sun 05.10.2009 6:53 pm

But like I said, you can browse good electronic dictionaries -- I do it all the time. You can even browse in reverse since most of them have the 逆引き広辞苑 -- so you can see all words that end in whatever you want.
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Re: PONY AUDITON Translation Please.

Postby furrykef » Sun 05.10.2009 7:21 pm

Sure, but nothin' beats just flippin' through pages.
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