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I had a random thought, and since there's no one to ask...

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I had a random thought, and since there's no one to ask...

Postby Kisai » Thu 05.21.2009 10:27 pm

はたしわ女です。

That would be saying. "I am a woman", correct?

Also, regarding "atashi" since I'm thinking of it, in what situations would that be used? I'm certain most females don't use it, so I'm wondering in what context that WOULD be used. If a woman WERE to use it, I imagine that she'd be drawing attention to her feminity since it's already obvious what gender she is, and thus, she'd be acting a bit sultry...? Perhaps? If you'd put it that way? Well, I'm sure you get what I mean. I was just curious about that.

And also, while reading those vocab words and seeing how you say "woman", I thought of something real simple in my head, and wondered if I've gotten a grasp on word order and how to speak yet.
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Re: I had a random thought, and since there's no one to ask...

Postby becki_kanou » Thu 05.21.2009 10:40 pm

The sentence is basically correct, but you've mixed up your wa-s. Particle wa is は and the other wa is わ.
So it should be:たし女です。
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Re: I had a random thought, and since there's no one to ask...

Postby Kisai » Thu 05.21.2009 10:57 pm

Ya know, I was wondering where I got confused. I was doing for "watashi" what I do for "konnichiwa" in which you gotta type the "wa" part as "ha" and I had a dyslexic moment there about which word I do that for. In any case, if I typed "ha" in place of the "wa" for "watashi", thinking of "konnichiwa" like I was, then I wasn't even close. I REALLY meant あたし, not わたし. But the "wa" as a particle is also typed as "ha" like in "konnichiwa"? I don't think I knew that. You inadvertantly taught me something. ^^

But okay, alright, I got some grasp on this. Awesome. ^_^
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Re: I had a random thought, and since there's no one to ask...

Postby furrykef » Thu 05.21.2009 11:17 pm

Kisai wrote: But the "wa" as a particle is also typed as "ha" like in "konnichiwa"?


Yep. In fact, the reason why "konnichiwa" is spelled "konnichiha" is because the "wa" was originally a particle in that phrase. "Konnichi" is an archaic word meaning "today", so the greeting literally meant, "As for today..." -- opening up the current day as a topic for discussion. But over the centuries it lost its meaning and simply became a common greeting (just as today nobody really knows or cares that "goodbye" came from "God be with you").

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Re: I had a random thought, and since there's no one to ask...

Postby spin13 » Fri 05.22.2009 2:56 am

Kisai wrote:Also, regarding "atashi" since I'm thinking of it, in what situations would that be used? I'm certain most females don't use it, so I'm wondering in what context that WOULD be used. If a woman WERE to use it, I imagine that she'd be drawing attention to her feminity since it's already obvious what gender she is, and thus, she'd be acting a bit sultry...? Perhaps? If you'd put it that way? Well, I'm sure you get what I mean. I was just curious about that.

あたし can be used by both women and men and I don't think it's really as rare or extreme as you seem to be implying. It really comes down to one's personality, one's upbringing, and the situation.

While あたし=female, ぼく/おれ=male is a simple and convenient way to teach personal pronouns, real life doesn't always come in neat little packages like that. Some of the middle-aged and elderly gentlemen with whom I practice traditional Japanese martial arts with use あたし because they were born and raised in Tokyo's Shitamachi. I've met female toddler's who use ぼく because that's what Mickie Mouse and Anpan Man use. And just this week I met a 8 or 9 year old girl who used ぼく because, well, that's just how she felt.

furrykef wrote:Yep. In fact, the reason why "konnichiwa" is spelled "konnichiha" is because the "wa" was originally a particle in that phrase. "Konnichi" is an archaic word meaning "today", so the greeting literally meant, "As for today..."

「こんにちはご機嫌いかがでしょうか。」
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Re: I had a random thought, and since there's no one to ask...

Postby two_heads_talking » Fri 05.22.2009 8:12 am

spin13 wrote:あたし can be used by both women and men and I don't think it's really as rare or extreme as you seem to be implying. It really comes down to one's personality, one's upbringing, and the situation...."



Yeah, but atashi is pretty effeminate sounding. In fact you'd probably hear a male say Watakushi before they'd say Watashi/Atashi, dropping that ku really puts a feminine spin on it.. (well at least in the Northern areas of Japan..)Perhaps it's different from Tokyo and south of that. (if that's the case, I've had little experience with southern dialects)
Last edited by two_heads_talking on Fri 05.22.2009 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I had a random thought, and since there's no one to ask...

Postby NocturnalOcean » Fri 05.22.2009 8:38 am

two_heads_talking wrote:
spin13 wrote:あたし can be used by both women and men and I don't think it's really as rare or extreme as you seem to be implying. It really comes down to one's personality, one's upbringing, and the situation...."

Yeah, but atashi is pretty effeminate sounding. In fact you'd probably hear a male say Watakushi before they'd say Watashi/Atashi, dropping that ku really puts a feminine spin on it.. (well at least in the Northern areas of Japan..)Perhaps it's different from Tokyo and south of that. (if that's the case, I've had little experience with southern dialects)


わたくし is a formal pronoun, doesn't have to do with male or female. Cutting the く doesn't make it sound more feminine.
わたし is very neutral I think, then あたし might be a bit more feminine, but わし is certainly not more feminine.

Speaking of the topic, I knew a girl around 24 in Tokyo who always referred to herself as ぼく. I found that pretty weird at the time, cause I had learnt that it was only for boys/men in my textbooks, but apparently that was not the case.
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Re: I had a random thought, and since there's no one to ask...

Postby two_heads_talking » Fri 05.22.2009 9:33 am

NocturnalOcean wrote: but わし is certainly not more feminine.

Speaking of the topic, I knew a girl around 24 in Tokyo who always referred to herself as ぼく. I found that pretty weird at the time, cause I had learnt that it was only for boys/men in my textbooks, but apparently that was not the case.


Notice I didn't use the word washi at all.. I was merely pointing out the simple variation of watakushi to watashi/atashi. I realize that men use watashi (mainly in a business environment, but the will admit it's not the most masculin way to speak, and as such, it's not used in business, due to enryo and all that.)

We've discussed the boku/ore use of females quite extensively, so i left that out as well. Nothing like an old lady referring to herself as ore and to her and her friends as wareware..
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Re: I had a random thought, and since there's no one to ask...

Postby AJBryant » Fri 05.22.2009 11:39 am

I like "soregashi" and "sessha".... :twisted:
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Re: I had a random thought, and since there's no one to ask...

Postby NocturnalOcean » Fri 05.22.2009 12:57 pm

two_heads_talking wrote:
NocturnalOcean wrote: but わし is certainly not more feminine.

Speaking of the topic, I knew a girl around 24 in Tokyo who always referred to herself as ぼく. I found that pretty weird at the time, cause I had learnt that it was only for boys/men in my textbooks, but apparently that was not the case.


Notice I didn't use the word washi at all.. I was merely pointing out the simple variation of watakushi to watashi/atashi. I realize that men use watashi (mainly in a business environment, but the will admit it's not the most masculin way to speak, and as such, it's not used in business, due to enryo and all that.)

We've discussed the boku/ore use of females quite extensively, so i left that out as well. Nothing like an old lady referring to herself as ore and to her and her friends as wareware..


The reason I used Washi as well was because it is simply a derivation of Watakushi-Watashi-Washi. You seemed to argue that using ku made it more masculine. I disagree. Watakushi is just a very formal pronoun. And I think you underestimate the usage of Watashi, I believe it is used a lot more than you think it is.
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Re: I had a random thought, and since there's no one to ask...

Postby two_heads_talking » Fri 05.22.2009 1:06 pm

NocturnalOcean wrote:
The reason I used Washi as well was because it is simply a derivation of Watakushi-Watashi-Washi. You seemed to argue that using ku made it more masculine. I disagree. Watakushi is just a very formal pronoun. And I think you underestimate the usage of Watashi, I believe it is used a lot more than you think it is.



I can only give the experiences I had, it's one of the reasons I mentioned the area. In my experiences in the local areas of Tohoku, from 1987-1989 that is the experience I had. I'm not arguing, but rather shedding light on a question from my point of view. I'll admit, I don't think I ever heard any of the women use watakushi at all, unless it was at a formal occassion. Perhaps my experiences are unique.
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Re: I had a random thought, and since there's no one to ask...

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Fri 05.22.2009 2:06 pm

The people around me now speak mostly standard Japanese although some speak Kansai-ben, but even so most of the girls just use わたし with an occasional あたし. The men mostly use 僕 with two 俺 people. (I use 僕 myself)
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Re: I had a random thought, and since there's no one to ask...

Postby spin13 » Fri 05.22.2009 11:11 pm

two_heads_talking wrote:Yeah, but atashi is pretty effeminate sounding. In fact you'd probably hear a male say Watakushi before they'd say Watashi/Atashi, dropping that ku really puts a feminine spin on it.. (well at least in the Northern areas of Japan..)Perhaps it's different from Tokyo and south of that. (if that's the case, I've had little experience with southern dialects)

It's not a Tokyo thing, it's a Tokyo Shitamachi thing. It's not one of the more defining features of 下町言葉, but it is used by some middle-aged and elderly men in eastern Tokyo. In that context, there is nothing effeminate about it. I don't know any males under the age of 40 who use あたし, though, and do agree it would probably sound quite effeminate if they did.

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