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Couple of simple translation questions

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Couple of simple translation questions

Postby raevin » Mon 06.01.2009 5:07 pm

So, I figured to improve my vocab and pound Japanese words into my brain, I'd write the words down on a piece of paper/post-it, and put it on the item. However, I've ran into a couple of dilemmas...

First one...for "water bottle", I'm assuming it's ボトルの水, but before doing a Google Translation to see what that would give, I wrote it as 水のボトル. I know the first one reads as "water bottle", and the 2nd reads as "bottled water". But, if I were to go into a restraunt, would I say the 1rst or 2nd form, or would that even matter? (I'm posting this here as it is a translation question in a way, as one might be reading it off the menu).

Second question is more translation-related. The word for wallet is "satsuire" (札入れ). But, looking up the pronounciation of the kanjis, the first one is read as "sa", and the second one is read as "iru/iri"...so, where does the "tsu" come from, and why is the "ru/ri" chopped off and replaced w/ the "re" kana?
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Re: Couple of simple translation questions

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 06.01.2009 5:56 pm

raevin wrote:First one...for "water bottle", I'm assuming it's ボトルの水, but before doing a Google Translation to see what that would give, I wrote it as 水のボトル. I know the first one reads as "water bottle", and the 2nd reads as "bottled water".


Other way around.

But, if I were to go into a restraunt, would I say the 1rst or 2nd form, or would that even matter? (I'm posting this here as it is a translation question in a way, as one might be reading it off the menu).


I'm not sure. The normal word for a plastic bottle that drinks come in is ペットボトル, but ペットボトルの水 strikes me as something that Japanese people would not normally say. I don't remember ever drinking bottled water in Japan (and certainly not ordering it at a restaurant).

Second question is more translation-related. The word for wallet is "satsuire" (札入れ). But, looking up the pronounciation of the kanjis, the first one is read as "sa", and the second one is read as "iru/iri"...so, where does the "tsu" come from, and why is the "ru/ri" chopped off and replaced w/ the "re" kana?


札 is read "satsu", not "sa"; I'm not sure what you were looking at. As for the second question, 入れる(ireru) is another word written with that kanji. In fact, "ireru" is much more common than "iru".

What resource are you using to find out the readings of these kanji?
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Re: Couple of simple translation questions

Postby raevin » Mon 06.01.2009 6:24 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
raevin wrote:First one...for "water bottle", I'm assuming it's ボトルの水, but before doing a Google Translation to see what that would give, I wrote it as 水のボトル. I know the first one reads as "water bottle", and the 2nd reads as "bottled water".


Other way around.

I had a feeling Google was wrong with that, lol...but, I didn't trust myself.

But, if I were to go into a restraunt, would I say the 1rst or 2nd form, or would that even matter? (I'm posting this here as it is a translation question in a way, as one might be reading it off the menu).


I'm not sure. The normal word for a plastic bottle that drinks come in is ペットボトル, but ペットボトルの水 strikes me as something that Japanese people would not normally say. I don't remember ever drinking bottled water in Japan (and certainly not ordering it at a restaurant).

Well, I was just using the restraunt thing as an example, as I couldn't think of a better way at the beginning. But, in any case, what would be the way to ask for bottled water at say, a sports event? I'd assume in most cases they would just say "水", but...yeah.

Second question is more translation-related. The word for wallet is "satsuire" (札入れ). But, looking up the pronounciation of the kanjis, the first one is read as "sa", and the second one is read as "iru/iri"...so, where does the "tsu" come from, and why is the "ru/ri" chopped off and replaced w/ the "re" kana?


札 is read "satsu", not "sa"; I'm not sure what you were looking at. As for the second question, 入れる(ireru) is another word written with that kanji. In fact, "ireru" is much more common than "iru".

What resource are you using to find out the readings of these kanji?

Hmmm...well, since knowing that 札 is read "satsu", the rest of it makes more sense now, and all that was done is that る was dropped from the word, which would also make sense as a wallet is not a verb, hah.

Thanks for the help and the clarification! :D
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Re: Couple of simple translation questions

Postby becki_kanou » Mon 06.01.2009 10:18 pm

I think 財布 (さいふ) is much more common for wallet than 札入れ. A 札入れ is a men's billfold the type that doesn't have a separate pocket for coins etc.

And never trust google translator for E=>J or J=>E; it's hopeless.
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Re: Couple of simple translation questions

Postby furrykef » Mon 06.01.2009 11:03 pm

The last time I tried to use it, Google Translate was utterly useless for any language. In its attempts to be smarter than other translators, it actually ends up being even more stupid, because it tries to interpret context or something and it ends up getting it entirely wrong. Even in a language like Spanish, where the subject is usually fairly clear, it'll do things like change "I" into "we" for no apparent reason (this was some time ago, so I may be slightly misremembering, but whatever it was, it was just as inexplicable).
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Re: Couple of simple translation questions

Postby raevin » Mon 06.01.2009 11:52 pm

becki_kanou wrote:I think 財布 (さいふ) is much more common for wallet than 札入れ. A 札入れ is a men's billfold the type that doesn't have a separate pocket for coins etc.

And never trust google translator for E=>J or J=>E; it's hopeless.

Hmm...alright. :) Well, I got "satsuiru" for wallet from both my kanji lookup book and (originally) from WWWJDIC, and since everyone speaks highly of WWW, I figured it was right, lol. But, I'll at least use saifu as an alternate for wallet. ^.^
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Re: Couple of simple translation questions

Postby furrykef » Tue 06.02.2009 12:52 am

raevin wrote:Well, I got "satsuiru" for wallet from both my kanji lookup book and (originally) from WWWJDIC, and since everyone speaks highly of WWW, I figured it was right, lol.


WWWJDIC is meant to be a J->E dictionary, not the other way around, so it not a good resource to use for translating from English to Japanese. It will have many words that are rarely used (or at least less commonly used than a synonym), without necessarily marking them as such; also, the definitions are likely to be cut way down for brevity, so you have no idea of the real nuance of the Japanese word. It's much safer to use a dictionary that has an English->Japanese section, because they are much less likely to suggest uncommon words or words that don't fit the context. You still need to be careful, though.

Translating from Japanese to English, though, WWWJDIC is far more useful, and much more convenient than most dictionaries. Of course, you may still need other dictionaries if WWWJDIC doesn't have the information you need.

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Re: Couple of simple translation questions

Postby astaroth » Tue 06.02.2009 8:25 am

furrykef wrote:translating from English to Japanese. It will have many words that are rarely used (or at least less commonly used than a synonym), without necessarily marking them as such

I agree on all of that. Just wanted to point out that one can look up only for 'common words' on WWWJDIC (and DenshiJisho) and that's how I'm mostly using it when I don't have my dictionaries around.
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