Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - -ndehanaiga

-ndehanaiga

Do you have a translation question?

-ndehanaiga

Postby mella » Sun 08.28.2011 4:56 am

お前の気持ちも分からんではないが
This sentence has been translated "I understand how you feel" but the ending sentence is negative, isn't it?
Tk you for your reply
mella
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon 08.02.2010 2:42 pm
Native language: Italian

Re: -ndehanaiga

Postby becki_kanou » Sun 08.28.2011 6:54 am

わらん is negative, it's a shortened version of わからない; to that you're adding ではない another negative, so with two negatives you get a positive. That is to say "I don't NOT understand you." which means "I understand you, but..." :D
そうだ、嬉しいんだ、生きる喜び!
例え胸の傷が痛んでも。
User avatar
becki_kanou
 
Posts: 3402
Joined: Sat 04.19.2008 10:09 pm
Location: Hyogo, Japan
Skype chat: yes_becki
Native language: U.S. English, 米語
Gender: Female

Re: -ndehanaiga

Postby Hyperworm » Sun 08.28.2011 7:12 am

Becki's correct, but still, this sentence seems odd to me.

How can you use ではない after a verb?

I'd be fine with:
でもないが
こともないが
ことはないが
but I don't think I've ever seen ではないが in this type of sentence.

This particular example "分からんではない" returns 446 google hits (wildly misreported as 993,000) which is enough to make me think I'm wrong and it's perfectly natural. >_>
fun translation snippets | need something translated?
BTC@1KMZXgoWiDshQis5Z7feCx8jaiP4QAB2ks
User avatar
Hyperworm
 
Posts: 493
Joined: Tue 11.20.2007 2:26 pm
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Re: -ndehanaiga

Postby NileCat » Sun 08.28.2011 10:46 am

Hyperworm wrote:Becki's correct, but still, this sentence seems odd to me.

How can you use ではない after a verb?

I'd be fine with:
でもないが
こともないが
ことはないが
but I don't think I've ever seen ではないが in this type of sentence.

This particular example "分からんではない" returns 446 google hits (wildly misreported as 993,000) which is enough to make me think I'm wrong and it's perfectly natural. >_>


Hi Hyperworm,
Let me explain the subtle differences in nuance of those expressions.

To begin with, let’s see the difference between 分からん and 分からない.
Generally speaking, as you know, 分からん sounds more colloquial than 分からない. But the question is what sort of nuance this colloquial version can convey? Well, it usually sounds blunt. And this is the work of negative ん. Here is an example for you.
Q:駅はどこですか?
A1:知りません
A2:知らない/知らないよ
A3:知らん
The last answer 3 would sound very blunt and rude.
HOWEVER, this –ん negation is considered to be a kind of common expression mainly used by old men. In fact, I suppose you have come across this kind of expression in many manga, anime or dramas. 「わしゃ知らん」(わしは知らん)(I don’t know)In a sense, being blunt might be supposed to be a kind of privilege of elder guys in our culture.
So, when I read the sentence 分からんではないが in this thread, I automatically assumed that it was a remark of an elder male. Do you know what I mean?

Secondly, the difference between 分からんではない and 分からんことはない. It is very subtle to be honest. But, again, this ではない usage is usually assumed to be an expression that elder men in general like to use. It can add some solemn feeling to the sentence rather than using ことはない, which is assumed to be a common tone of オヤジ, especially when they want to make 説教 to younger people.

In short, the specific nuance that “お前の気持ちも分からんではないが” has is that the speaker is a)male, b)middle-aged or upper, c)elder than the listener.

あなたの気持ちは分からないことはないが
Vs
お前の気持ちは分からんでは(も)ないが

Lastly, the difference between 分からんでもないが and 分からんではないが.
I’d say も sounds more sympathetic in this case. 分からんでもないが has a nuance of concession rather than 分からんではないが. So, it sounds to me that ではないが emphasizes the oyaji nuance more.

e.g. (They would sound very oyaji-ish)
どうしてもと言うなら教えてやらんではないが、自分で調べなさい。
(=教えてやらないではないが)
(=教えてやらないわけではないが)
(=教えてやらないというわけではないが)
食えと言うなら食わんではないが、気がすすまんな。
(=食わないではないが)
(=食わないというわけではないが)

Just my two cents.
:D
User avatar
NileCat
 
Posts: 1168
Joined: Sat 08.01.2009 2:11 pm
Location: Tokyo
Native language: Japanese

Re: -ndehanaiga

Postby Hyperworm » Sun 08.28.2011 10:55 am

Thank you once again, NileCat! :D 勉強になりました!
fun translation snippets | need something translated?
BTC@1KMZXgoWiDshQis5Z7feCx8jaiP4QAB2ks
User avatar
Hyperworm
 
Posts: 493
Joined: Tue 11.20.2007 2:26 pm
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Re: -ndehanaiga

Postby NileCat » Sun 08.28.2011 3:33 pm

Hyperworm, since I know you’re one of the most advanced Japanese speaker here, let me add just one more trivial information about this usage.

There was one important thing I didn’t mention above.
This –ん negation was originally altered from archaic –ぬ form.
知らぬ。行かぬ。分からぬ。→知らん。行かん。分からん。
e.g.) お主の気持ちも分からぬではないが、ここは拙者に免じて堪えてくれ。
This is an archaic example which you might find it in 時代劇 or something. The speaker might be a samurai. And the grammar is totally proper.
お主 の 気持ち も 分からぬ ではないが
お前 の 気持ち も 分からん ではないが
The second one sounds more modern, however, it still has a nuance of samurai who used to be a respectable citizen, which many modern oyaji’s find it cool or something. In Japanese society, older people are expected to speak like a kind of boss. So their vocab somewhat differs from the younger’s even today. They tend to use kind of different words that young boys never uses, in order to express their social status or something.
For instance, younger generation use つまらない or つまんない or つまんねえ. The semi-archaic ‘blunt’ version of the word is つまらん. There are many manga characters who use this expression, though, the idea of this expression is still like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2oy4Hms ... re=related
「つまらん」「くだらん」...These expressions sound very natural when it is delivered by an old codger. And when some young man deliberately uses it, he is usually aware of the effect that his remark would sound like a wisenheimer’s.(in a good way or as a joke) :)
User avatar
NileCat
 
Posts: 1168
Joined: Sat 08.01.2009 2:11 pm
Location: Tokyo
Native language: Japanese

Re: -ndehanaiga

Postby mella » Mon 08.29.2011 4:01 am

Tk you, your explanation was clear and detailed :D
mella
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon 08.02.2010 2:42 pm
Native language: Italian

Re: -ndehanaiga

Postby furrykef » Tue 09.06.2011 8:59 pm

The simplest explanation is:

お前の気持ちも分からんではないが = "It's not that I don't understand you, but..."

I'm thinking the ん here must be doubling both as the negation for 分かる and for the so-called "explanatory の". In other words, the の is getting contracted to ん, but you can't have んん, so the single ん suffices for both.
Founder of Learning Languages Through Video Games.
Also see my lang-8 journal, where you can help me practice Japanese (and Spanish, and Italian!)
User avatar
furrykef
 
Posts: 1572
Joined: Thu 01.10.2008 9:20 pm
Native language: Eggo (ワッフル語の方言)
Gender: Male


Return to Translation Questions or Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests