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移し変える and 移し替える

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移し変える and 移し替える

Postby jimbreen » Thu 08.29.2013 10:52 pm

This is a question for the native-speakers and other skilled people.

At present we have an entry in EDICT/JMdict:
移し替える (うつしかえる) (v1) to shift (move) (an object) to (into)
The only references which cover this verb are 日本国語大辞典 and the Japanese Wordnet, which say much the same.
There is also 移し変える, for which the Japanese Wordnet has:
移し変える (うつしかえる) (v) to transfer; to transpose; to transplant

The big Unidic lexicon (for morphological analysis) says these are two ways of writing the same verb, along with 移しかえる. Are they really the same, or do the differences vary as in the Wordnet entries? We regard 変える and 替える as having different meanings, but perhaps they are being treated as the same here.

移し変える is actually a bit more common than 移し替える.

Hoping for some clarification.

Cheers

Jim
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Re: 移し変える and 移し替える

Postby Ongakuka » Fri 08.30.2013 4:34 am

It's the same word in that it has the same basic root meaning and it is phonetically the same word (so you wouldn't necessarily think about which kanji so much if you heard it.) But if it was written down in kanji, the imagery would be appropriate to the situation. So I consider it the same word with two usages that require an entry in the dictionary.
なぜなら、おまえは・・・・・・人形だ
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Re: 移し変える and 移し替える

Postby NileCat » Fri 08.30.2013 3:24 pm

Hello Jim,

Let me try to explain the difference of those two in nuance.
But please understand that the interpretation might somewhat differ amongst age groups. Take my interpretation as one of “aged” people.

We use both of those kanji’s in our daily life like they are interchangeable, however, if you write:
この2つの箱の中身を移し変えてください。
I for one would see it a little bit weird. In my opinion, it should be 替 (or 換) because you want to 交換する of the contents of the two boxes.

It would be your point of view that counts. The kanji “変” has a strong association with “変化” whereas “替” (or 換) has with “交替” (or 交換). If you (only) see the (first) box, the “change” is to be done in its own “world”, however, if you see both of the two boxes, the “(ex)change” is to be done “between” the two. That’s the difference, in my humble opinion.

...Which means, well, my instinct tells me that 移し替える (or 移し換える) looks "more proper" in any case considering the meaning of the complex verb, and "変" would be "modern usage" and "acceptable", so to speak.

Just my two cents.
Hope it helps.
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Re: 移し変える and 移し替える

Postby jimbreen » Mon 09.02.2013 8:51 pm

Thanks to both Nilecat and Ongakuka for those detailed responses. It's a tricky one to deal with. What I think I'll suggest (it has to be approved by another editor) is that we stay with the one entry, split the English meanings into two senses, one of which is more about exchanging, and add some notes indicating which kanji form is more often associated with each sense.
See http://www.edrdg.org/jmdictdb/cgi-bin/s ... 8%E3%82%8B

Thanks again.

Jim
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