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Related curricula – 3kyuu study group

The test - experiences, questions or comments

受身

Postby coco » Thu 09.06.2007 10:24 am

SS wrote:
まだこんな文型あまり分かりません。

大丈夫です。 :)
I don't think you have to make a passive form from all sentences.
For example
父は アメリカの会社に 車を 輸出した。→ アメリカの会社は 父から 車を 輸入した。
アメリカの会社は 父から 車を輸出された。 is hardly used.

が私のすしを食べた」の受身文は、
1) 私はすしをに食べられた。
2) 私のすしをに食べられた。

Both are correct.

・姉に(お)すしを食べられた。this means (私は) 姉に (私の お)すしを 食べられた。
・私の(お)すし [は/が] 姉に 食べられた。
are also correct. ( Please take a look at this.)

「先生が翁さんの絵をほめた」の受身文は、
1) 翁さんは先生に絵をほめられた。
2) 翁さんの絵を先生にほめられた。

1) is correct.
2) could be a same structure as
私は 息子の絵を 先生に ほめられた。 I was praised for my son's painting from the teacher.(?)
私は 祖父の絵を 先生に ほめられた。 I was praised for my grandfather's 〜.
So 翁さんの絵先生に ほめられた。The Okina-san's painting /drawing was praised by the teacher. (?)
would be more clear and more common.
By the way, it is not so popular though, there is a family name 翁 (おきな). おじいさん is for a grandfather or old man.

銀行で私のお金を貯蓄します。
1) 私は銀行にお金を貯蓄されます。
2) 私のお金は銀行に貯蓄されます。

This example is extremely difficult because of the word 貯蓄する and the particle に in 銀行に. :D
I take 銀行で私のお金を貯蓄します as (私は私の) お金を銀行預金で貯蓄しています。
I save my money with the bank deposit.
Is it right?

1) 私は銀行にお金を貯蓄され(てい)ます。
This sentenc is very ambiguous and odd. If I try deciphering this, it might be taken as " The bank deposit their money to me". This sentence is not a passive form of 私は銀行にお金を貯蓄し(てい)ます。

2)私のお金は銀行に貯蓄され(てい)ます。is correct.
As you distinguished 銀行で as being different from 銀行に, で is troublesome, as well as に.  銀行に貯蓄される has two meanings.
2-1)私のお金は銀行(という場所=in)に貯蓄され(てい)る。
My money is [stored/saved] in the bank.

○私のお金は銀行に預金されています。
My money is deposited in my bank.

2-2)私のお金は銀行に(よって=by)貯蓄され(てい)る。
In this case, as your example above says, the doer of saving money could be " The bank".
My money is saved by a banker. (?)
My money is put aside by my bank. (?)

---
I think your Polar Bear story has many components of example sentences. :)

シロクマが ライオン 送った。
Polar bear sent a piece of ice to Lion.
a) ライオン シロクマ[から/に] 箱一杯の水を 送られた。
b) ライオン シロクマから 箱一杯の水を 受け取った。
c) [は/が] シロクマ[から/によって] ライオンに 送られた。
d) 箱一杯の水[が/は] シロクマ[によって/から] ライオンに 送られた。

The sentence "a" is called 迷惑の受け身, so we use "b" rather than "a".
An useful explanation about the difference between から andに.
----
Here are another examples . Maybe these must be annoying.
( location /way ) で ( noun ) を ( Verb) します。 It is a same structure as your example, 銀行 で 私のお金を 貯蓄 します。
・location
音楽室で 新しい曲を 演奏します。
新しい曲 音楽室で 演奏されます。
新しい曲音楽室で演奏されます。 work as well, but sometimes
新しい曲音楽室で演奏します。 it is used as
新しい曲は、([the doer]が]) 音楽室で演奏します。
So using が as a subject marker, 新しい曲が would be better in this context.

・way, tool
特別なフライパンで その肉を 料理 します。
その肉[が/は] 特別なフライパンで 料理されます。
特別なフライパンで その肉 料理されます。
[その肉は 特別なフライパンで 料理します。 is used as
その肉は ([the doerが]) 特別なフライパンで 料理します。

( The doer) は/が ( noun ) を ( somewhere) に ( Verb ) します。
This sentence would be easier because the doer is clear.
その店の店員が ピザを お客さんの家に 配達します。
ピザは その店の店員によって お客さんの家に 配達されます。
---
先生にも必ず確認してください。 ;)
Believe me, the passive grammar questions of JLPT3 are easier than your complicated example sentences.
Last edited by coco on Sun 09.09.2007 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Related curricula – 3kyuu study group

Postby ss » Thu 09.06.2007 10:47 pm

Coco-san, thank you very much for confirming the answer and also for the extended explanations.

Daddy’s friend gave me a 日本語迫ヘ試驗(三級) book, I tried to study the 文型 in this book, but ehh..... anyway, you know me well. :(

受身文1 - A〜する → B〜受身形
受身文2 - {人の〜を} AX(物)〜する → BX(物)〜受身形

I also tried the 練習問題, they were testing our understanding of the structure (tick the appropriate answers). So now I know the answers are C and D, but seems like B also makes sense, except it’s in causative form. (?)

Eg. 「税関検査官(ぜいかんけんさかん)が私の荷物を調べた。」の受身文は「______」です。
A私は荷物に税関検査官を調べられた。
B私の荷物は税関検査官に調べさせた。
C私は税関検査官に荷物を調べられた。
D私の荷物は税関検査官に調べられた。


By the way, it is not so popular though, there is a family name 翁 (おきな). おじいさん is for a grandfather or old man.


Okay, thanks.
中國語 we have 老翁 --- old man, but we cannot call grandfather 老翁、this is horrible!!! Grandfather is just 爺爺 or 祖父.
And we have 不倒翁--- tumbler, roly-poly. A person with strong, firm, faithful, determined or unyielding personality, we refer them as 不倒翁 too.
You know surnamed 翁 (Weng) was not included in the mainland within 100 (百家姓), however, it was ranked 49th among the popular surnamed in Taiwan. Heard of 翁倩玉 ? Sorry for the confusion there. ;)

This example is extremely difficult because of the word 貯蓄する and the particle に in 銀行に. :D
I take 銀行で私のお金を貯蓄します as (私は私の) お金を銀行預金で貯蓄しています。
I save my money with the bank deposit.
Is it right?


Exactly!! My limited 脳 also tells me Japanese is getting very difficult. :(
I was trying to say :
銀行で私のお金を貯蓄します。 (I) save my money in the bank.
1) 私は銀行にお金を貯蓄されます。 } My money was saved in the bank.
2) 私のお金は銀行に貯蓄されます。 } ------ ditto ---------

Is 貯蓄 the same as 儲蓄?
We learnt the 中國語 「儲蓄」 during 小學三年級.
e.g. 我把錢儲蓄在撲滿。 I save money in the piggy bank.
I’m not sure there’s 儲蓄 in JP. (??)

I am trying to digest your explanation:-
2-2)私のお金は銀行に(よって=by)貯蓄され(てい)る。
In this case, as your example above says, the doer of saving money could be " The bank".
My money is saved by a banker. (?)
My money is put aside by my bank. (?)


I’m afraid we are having a little communication problem now :) , I don’t understand both sentences there.
My radar is not functioning well today.


-----
Coco-san wrote:
先生にも必ず確認してください。
Believe me, the passive grammar questions of JLPT3 are easier than your complicated example sentences.


[spoiler]Coco-san, as you may know, my JP class is only once a week. I tried my best to cross check with sensei whenever I had the chance to do so in my Sunday class. But there were times where I had no opportunity to ask on the day itself, because, sensei had actually planned his lessons and also due to some other unforeseen reasons. Sometimes I had to drive all the way to the other language centre to catch him, and there were occasions I had to wait for a few hours, asked the questions, headed back home. Almost midnight by the time I reached home. It did take up a lot of his time in lieu of his schedule planned. I think the same goes to you as well, my sincere apology.

Come to think of it, I’ve decided to minimize distractions during the discussions here. I’ll cut down my questions. Once again, thank you for your time. [/spoiler]

----
Corrections:
まだこんな文型あまり分かりません。


が私のすしを食べた」の受身文は、
1) 私はすしをに食べられた。
2) 私のすしをに食べられた。
Last edited by ss on Sun 09.23.2007 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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誰も〜 は + ない

Postby coco » Fri 09.07.2007 9:20 pm

katafei wrote:
And to get back at an earlier question:
I think the は in
誰も笑われるの好きではない
is used, because the sentence is a negative?


You can use both が and は in a following sentence.
私の息子は、旅行に行くの[は/が]好きだが、飛行機に乗るの[が/は]好きではない
My son likes to go on a trip but doesn't like to take a airplane. (?)

は has some roles, one of them is a contradistinction. It contradistinguish something from other objects.

リンゴ 好きです。I like an apple.
In this case, the speaker doesn't imply anything.
リンゴ 好きです。
In this case, a listener would consider " an apple is her favorite but she might dislike other fruits."
Since は has a role of a contradistinction, it is used like this.
リンゴ好きですが、バナナ[は/が]嫌い(なん)です。

Regarding 誰も 笑われるの 好きではない, it might not be incorrect,but it is not common. When you use 笑われるのは in this context, it could be a implication of 笑うのは好きだ。

(誰しも笑うのは好きだが ) 誰も 笑われるの 好きではない。
Everyone likes to laugh, but doesn't like to be laughed at.(?)

So generally [ 誰も + passive form の+ は + verb negative ]is used because it implies " To do is okay".

誰も 叱られるの 好きではない。= 叱られるのが好きな人は 誰もいない。
Nobody likes to be scolded.  (?)
implication: Even if you like to scold someone,

誰も ただで働かされるの 好きではない。= ただで働かされるのが好きな人は 誰もいない。
Nobody likes to be forced to work without pay.  (?)
implication: Even if you like to let someone work./Even if you like to do paid work.

And [誰も + noun + particle + verb negative ] is a common form. Generally the verb could be a determining factor of the particle.

誰も 地球温暖化[/は] 望んでいない。=地球温暖化望んでいる人は 誰もいない。
Nobody wishes for a global warming. (?)

誰も あの飛行機は 乗らない。= あの飛行機乗る人は 誰もいない。
Nobody takes that airplane. (?)

I hope this makes sense.

7.あなたが___日を教えて下さい。「来る」
7.来られる
Let me know the days you can come
(This one came from Jim Breen, a bit over my head as well, in retrospect.)

This 来られる is a potential form of 来る.
Last edited by coco on Sun 09.09.2007 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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受身+使役

Postby coco » Sat 09.08.2007 5:42 am

SS-san, your questions are always interesting to me. Even though I couldn't give you good explanations, I can learn from your questions. I want to say "Thank you" to you too. :)I believe your questions are useful for other learners. I'm afraid of my mistakes so I wrote 先生に確認してください. :p

SS wrote:
Eg. 「税関検査官(ぜいかんけんさかん)が私の荷物を調べた。」の受身文は「______」です。
A私は荷物に税関検査官を調べられた。
B私の荷物は税関検査官に調べさせた。
C私は税関検査官に荷物を調べられた。
D私の荷物は税関検査官に調べられた。


okay, sentence B looks like a causative form.
私の荷物 税関に 調べさせた
If it's a causative form, please guess a person who enjoined a a customs examiner to check up the baggage.
If the sentence is
(私は)私の荷物 税関検査官に 調べさせた。
私の荷物は (私が) 税関検査官に 調べさせた。
I enjoined a customs officer to check up my baggage. (?)
I don't think this is a passive action. It sounds rather like an aggressive. :D

If the sentence was
MI6 が 私の荷物を 関税検査官に 調べさせた.
The speaker would have got annoyed, but we can't find if the baggage eventually received a check or not. Because you might read next sentence,
しかし 私は 検査官を ピストルで撃ち、 荷物を奪い返して全速力で走った。


税関検査官(ぜいかんけんさかん)私の荷物を調べた。
In this sentence, the doer of 調べる is a customs examiner. The particle に marks the doer in a passive form sentence.

Let's change some words with using a same structure.
警察 私のお金を調べた。 The plice checked up my money.
It can be a passive form.
私の お金は 警察調べられた。
私は 警察 お金を 調べられた。
My money was checked up by [the police/ a police man]. (?)

The passive form of 銀行が私のお金を調べた。would be
私の お金は 銀行 調べられた。
私は 銀行 お金を 調べられた。
My money was checked up by [the bank/ a banker]. (?)

As using this analogy, the noun before に in a passive form signifies the doer of an active verb.

私の お金は 銀行 盗まれた。
私は 銀行 お金を 盗まれた。
My money was stolen by the bank. (?) The doer of 盗む is 銀行.

私の お金は 銀行 貯蓄された。
My money was saved by the bank. (?)The doer of 貯蓄する is 銀行.
私は 銀行 お金を 貯蓄された。
I was deposited (their) money from the bank.(?)
Surprisingly, the active form of these would be
銀行が 私の お金を 貯蓄した。
The bank stored my money. / The bank deposited my money.
I think what you tried to say was
私[が/は] (銀行に) お金を 貯蓄した。The doer of saving is 私.
It seems that someone is stealing your money. :D


A passive form may give you a nuance of inconvenienced and the person who got action might receive a bad influence. Therefore the meaning of your passive form could be taken as
・私は 銀行に (よって 誰かの口座に) お金を 貯蓄された。
(Inconveniently )My money was stored ( on someone's account ) by the bank.
・(私の許可なく)私の お金は 銀行に 貯蓄された。
(inconveniently, without my permission) My money was stored [by a banker./ in the bank].

私は 銀行に お金を 貯蓄された is not common expression as a passive form.
Because this form is used in an active form.
私は 銀行に お金を 貯蓄(貯金)した。
* in a narrow sense, 貯金 is used for a postal savings but many people use 貯金 for a bank deposit , also for a saving.
Therefore if you say 私は 銀行に お金を 貯蓄されました to Japanese people, most people would consider you are trying to say 私は 銀行に お金を 貯蓄しました。

These are the reasons of difficulties in your example.

Once again, there are many sentences whose passive form are hardly heard.
昨日、私たちは このタクシーに 乗った。 We took this taxi yesterday.
昨日、このタクシー は 私たちに 乗られた。Yesterday, this taxi was taken by us. ← this is hardly used.

もうひとつ。
07.あなたが来る日を教えて下さい。

If you felt difficulties with this sentence, please feel free to ask.


分からないところがあれば、遠慮なくご質問ください。 :)
Last edited by coco on Sun 09.09.2007 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Related curricula – 3kyuu study group

Postby ss » Sun 09.09.2007 5:52 am

ここさんはやはり「姫」ですよ!戦国戦士の「姫」は称賛に助ェ値しました! Tony の姫, don’t worry, nothing serious.
You have always tried your best to help us understand Japanese, I understood well enough you are such a modest person. I think the people here simply love your English, so, just be yourself and smile! If you want to say “Thank You” to me, I will say “敬禮” to you next time. I believe your explanations are very useful to the learners too, loving and charming sweetheart!   :p

Now, back to discussion.

okay, sentence B looks like a causative form.
私の荷物は 税関に 調べさせた。
If it's a causative form, please guess a person who enjoined a a customs examiner to check up the baggage.
If the sentence is
(私は)私の荷物を 税関検査官に 調べさせた。
私の荷物は (私が) 税関検査官に 調べさせた。
I enjoined a customs officer to check up my baggage. (?)
I don't think this is a passive action. It sounds rather like an aggressive. :D


I was sent to cyberspace for a moment!!!
I think I eventually have a clue of what you meant. I have to remember causative expressions are used to mean > A makes/forces/has/allows/permits B to do something.
私の荷物は 税関に 調べさせた。
My luggage was checked by the customs officers. < wrong to think in this way!!
My luggage was forced/made to open and check by the customs officers. < aggressive huh? P)

私の お金は 銀行に 盗まれた。
私は 銀行に お金を 盗まれた。
My money was stolen by the bank. (?) The doer of 盗む is 銀行.

私の お金は 銀行に 貯蓄された。
My money was saved by the bank. (?)The doer of 貯蓄する is 銀行.
私は 銀行に お金を 貯蓄された。
I was deposited (their) money from the bank.(?)
Surprisingly, the active form of these would be
銀行が 私の お金を 貯蓄した。
The bank stored my money. / The bank deposited my money.
I think what you tried to say was
私[が/は] (銀行に) お金を 貯蓄した。The doer of saving is 私.
It seems that someone is stealing your money. :D

A passive form may give you a nuance of inconvenienced and the person who got action might receive a bad influence. Therefore the meaning of your passive form could be taken as
・私は 銀行に (よって 誰かの口座に) お金を 貯蓄された。
(Inconveniently )My money was stored ( on someone's account ) by the bank.
・(私の許可なく)私の お金は 銀行に 貯蓄された。
(inconveniently, without my permission) My money was stored [by a banker./ in the bank].

私は 銀行に お金を 貯蓄された is not common expression as a passive form.
Because this form is used in an active form.
私は 銀行に お金を 貯蓄(貯金)した。
* in a narrow sense, 貯金 is used for a postal savings but many people use 貯金 for a bank deposit , also for a saving.
Therefore if you say 私は 銀行に お金を 貯蓄されました to Japanese people, most people would consider you are trying to say 私は 銀行に お金を 貯蓄しました。

These are the reasons of difficulties in your example.


I think I still need more time to digest the above. :p

貯蓄される has two meanings.
2-1)私のお金は銀行に貯蓄されている。
My money is [stored/saved] in the bank.

○私のお金は銀行に預金されています。
My money is deposited in my bank.


In the meantime, I'll just have to remember this way of saying. :p

[spoiler]
07.あなたが来る日を教えて下さい。

If you felt difficulties with this sentence, please feel free to ask.


I think this "と" as Conditional Tense - Possible or Likely Events
We use conditional tenses to show an event that is likely to happen.
The conditional (or “if” clause) is usually in the Present Tense.
The main clause may be in the Future Tense.

Examples:
If they are late, they will get nothing.
If you see him, tell him this message.
If I am ill, I see a doctor.

I take this sentence as conditional form (by mistake):
あなたが来ると日を教えて下さい。 If you come, please let me know when (the date).

Like these sentences:
いい仕事ができると、とても嬉いです。 I feel very happy if I can do a good job.

それに聞くと、彼は立腹するでしょう。 He will be angry if he hears about it.

私は酒を飲むと必ず頭が痛いくなります。 I will feel headache if I drink sake.

藤さんは来週韓国へ出張すると言いました。 Fuju-san said he would make a business trip to South Korea next week.

Sorry about that, we were doing "Passive" form sentences though.

[/spoiler]

-----
分からないところがあれば、遠慮なくご質問ください。 :) << I'm afraid your hair will get white very soon. ;)

-----
Last edited by ss on Sun 09.09.2007 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Related curricula – 3kyuu study group

Postby katafei » Mon 09.10.2007 8:42 am

Well, these are my answers to the causative exercise. I hope they are right.

Edit:I've corected some of the mistakes coco-san pointed out. Not sure if I remembered all, though...

今月(?)学校は始まった。私は娘に学校に行かせて
学校で先生は娘に英語を勉強させた。
先生が学生にジェーンオースティンの新しい小説を読ませた、
知らない言葉を辞書で調べさせた。
5時に娘がまだ帰っていなかった。私に心配させた。
でも友達と茶話した。
私が娘に電話して、彼女をすぐに家に帰らせて、宿題を持って来させた。

And a new exercise including all three forms in preparation for next chat.
I would really like some feedback as well to know if these are on the right level (and indeed if they are correct :) )

1.娘は私に心配___つもりない。
A. させられる
B. する
C. させる
D. される

2. 部長、私の室は___。この部屋を___ください。
A. 塗られている / 使って
B. 塗されている / 使わさせて
C. 塗られている / 使わせて
D. 塗されている / 使わない

3. あの学校は三諸N前に___。
A. 建っていられました
B. 建てらせられた
C. 建てされた
D. 建てられた

4. お母さんは子供を医者に___。
A. 行かないでいません
B. 行かせました
C. 行かれました
D. 行かせられました

5. 薬が子供に___。お母さんは子供に薬を___から。
A. 飲ませました / 飲ませられました
B. 飲ませられました / 飲まれました
C. 飲まれました / 飲ませました
D. 飲まれました / 飲ませられました


6. 私はココ先生にチャットの酪Kを____。
酪K 【よしゅう】 (n,vs) preparation for a lesson
A. させられました
B. させました
C. していました
D. されました
Last edited by katafei on Tue 09.18.2007 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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受身

Postby coco » Mon 09.10.2007 1:00 pm

SS-san, I was thinking why I feel uneasiness with the passive form of 私は銀行にお金を貯蓄します. Even the sentence
私のお金は銀行に預金されています is an unclear expression.
It is less uncomfortable than 貯蓄 to me because 預金 is used for "deposit money in bank".
However when you say 「私のお金は銀行に預金されています。」, most people consider the doer, the act "deposit", is someone except the speaker.

When you hear
山田さんの荷物[が/は] 調べられた。
In this sentence, the doer of 調べる is omitted. So people consider the doer of check is someone except the speaker. The meaning would be some as
山田さんの 荷物[が/は] 誰かに 調べられた。

If the speaker is a examiner, it means the doer is 私 then
私[は/が] 山田さんの 荷物を 調べた。 is an active form.
山田さんの 荷物は 私に 調べられた。 is not grammatically incorrect, but generally we use an active voice. This passive form is seldom used.

For example,
私は 橋本さんに 本を 買った。 I bought a book for Hashimoto-san.
This active form is a common expression.
橋本さんは 私に 本を 買われた。Hashimoto-san was bought a book by me. (?)
This passive form is uncommon, and this sentence may have a meaning of
"I bought a cake for someone. Hashimoto-san wanted to buy it but couldn't buy since I bought it."

Next, let's think about the case of this.
橋本さんが 私に ケーキを 買った。Hashimoto-san bought a cake for me.
in this case, most people would put くれた to express her/his gratitude to 橋本さん.
橋本さんが 私にケーキを 買ってくれた
Then try to make a passive form.
私は 橋本さんに ケーキを 買われた。
People think 橋本さん did buy cake for someone else( not for the speaker). The speaker didn't recive the cake. This type of expression is oftten used with しまった.
私は 橋本さんに ケーキ を 買われて しまった

私は 橋本さんに ケーキを 買ってもらった
In this case, the speaker certainly received the cake which have been bought by 橋本さん because もらう is used.

私は 姉の ケーキを 食べた。 I ate my elder sister's cake.
You might make both passive sentences, but they are unnatural. Despite her/his act, it sounds as if the speaker feels this was somebody else's problem.
姉の ケーキは 私に 食べられた。
姉は 私に ケーキを 食べられた。

私の おすしは 姉に 食べられた。is oftten used. Because the doer is not a speaker.

----
あなたが来る日を教えて下さい。
I think this question is good to understand conditionals. JLPT often asks this type of questions as the conditional grammar. I hope the article helps. And this post.(this thread is also interesting.)

If it was conditional sentence, then it would become
(もし)あなたが来るなら、いつ来るか教えてください。
(もし)あなたが来るなら、来る日を教えてください。
Although it depends on the previous conversation, I think even if it was a conditional form, using a potential form would be more natural.

(もし)あなたが来られる(の)なら、その日を教えてください。
(もし)あなたが来られる(の)なら、来られる日を教えてください。
来られる itself can be taken as a 尊敬語( respectful language ) of 来る.
But if you'd like to use 尊敬語 of 来る、いらっしゃる is more polite.
Then potential form would be いらっしゃれる [いらっしゃる + potential].
So 敬語 form of this sentence would be something like this.
(もし、先生が)いらっしゃれるようでしたら、ご嵐閧?ウえていただけませんか。

*Again, JLPT3 questions are easier than these.

I understand that you made this thread for learning 3級 related grammar. Our basic aim is to understand Japanese through the exam preparation. You can query anything as many times as needed. :)
Last edited by coco on Mon 09.10.2007 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Related curricula – 3kyuu study group

Postby ss » Tue 09.11.2007 3:13 am

ここさん、いろいろお世話になり、感謝します。 

私は聡明な学生ではありません。それで、長い時間の理解を必要とします。心配しないでください。

今週末に会いましょう! *安心* :p

[spoiler]COCO小姐,did you experience excessive hair loss? After hair loss would follow up by teeth loss -- *warning! After that you would probably become a hale and hearty 婆婆!
請別擔心,OK嗎? Image [/spoiler]
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RE: Related curricula – 3kyuu study group

Postby Gundaetiapo » Tue 09.11.2007 5:43 am

ここさん、いろいろお世話になり


Doesn't this mean "Coco san received help"? Don't know if you intended that.
Last edited by Gundaetiapo on Tue 09.11.2007 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Related curricula – 3kyuu study group

Postby ss » Tue 09.11.2007 9:56 am

ここさん、いろいろお世話になり

Gundaetiapo-san wrote:
Doesn't this mean "Coco san received help"? Don't know if you intended that.


Ha! Welcome to the cyberspace, Gund-san!

When I first learnt Japanese, there were many question marks on my 脳。Along the way, I tried to understand the Japanese way of thinking and saying a little at a time. This was the fun part of learning Japanese.

Your toilet needs some 手紙??
「大事な手紙がない、どこにおいたのだろう?」 ← OMG, where is the toilet paper??
あまり頭はよくない。← The head is not so good??
背が高い。← The shoulder is high??
電話に出る。 ← Telephone is out?? (sounds like 電話 is out for shopping ^^; )

And how do you say these in Japanese?
I am hungry and thirsty
I am angry.

I was quite curious how did you derive that sentence?

Literally, いろいろお世話になり、感謝します means
for everything that you do for me, I am very grateful.
*I am extremely thankful for everything that you do for me/you have done.
*I am truly grateful for all your various aspects of input/teaching/help etc etc.

Some useful tips on なり

I don’t mind Coco-san starts a class just to teach us some common expression of Japanese phrases. ;)
Last edited by ss on Tue 09.11.2007 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Related curricula – 3kyuu study group

Postby Gundaetiapo » Tue 09.11.2007 6:22 pm

If I'm not mistaken "Aさん、お世話になります。" means "A becomes indebted." So なり is not a conjugated なる then? I've seen sentences end on verb stems so I didn't think なり was an entirely different word. Thanks for teaching me, SS.
Last edited by Gundaetiapo on Tue 09.11.2007 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: お世話になる

Postby coco » Tue 09.11.2007 9:38 pm

Gundaetiapo wrote:
If I'm not mistaken "Aさん、お世話になります。" means "A becomes indebted." So なり is not a conjugated なる then?

The speaker calls to A-san.
「Aさん、 (私は あなたの)お世話になります。」 
This "A さん" isn't a subject of the sentence. When Aさん is the subject, a sentence would be
A さん 山田さん[の/に]お世話になります。
this means
山田さん Aさんの お世話をします

Grammatically, a passive form of 世話をする would be 世話をされる. But when a speaker is a recipient of the benefits, the speaker says お世話になる instead of お世話をされる. In many cases, the recipients of benefit of お世話になり sentence is 私 or 私たち.
お世話になる is also used when a recipient of the benefits is your " in-group" member.
e.g. 息子がいろいろお世話になり(まして)、ありがとうございました。

One of 〜になる usages is used to express " receiving a benefit/receiving favor".
e.g. (私は)本田さんに夕食をごちそう(御馳走)になった。
--
From WWWJDIC
世話になる 【せわになる】 (exp) to receive favor; to receive favour; to be much obliged to someone; ED
世話 【せわ】 (n,vs) looking after; help; aid; assistance; (P); EP

From 英辞郎
I'm really indebted to you for helping me get started in this business. : このビジネスを始める際に助けていただき、本当にお世話になりました。

--
「いつもお世話になっております。」
is a very useful expression used among working people.
Last edited by coco on Tue 09.11.2007 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Related curricula – 3kyuu study group

Postby Gundaetiapo » Tue 09.11.2007 10:34 pm

ココさん、ご教示ありがとうございます。 Since the particle は can be dropped sometimes, I got confused. I've got a long ways to go yet.
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RE: Related curricula – 3kyuu study group

Postby ss » Tue 09.11.2007 11:09 pm

ここさん、いつもありがとうございました。

Gund-san, let's study hard together, look forward and cheers!

Btw, sensei recommended this site for listening practice. Since Coco-san was teaching お〜になる> なります and します, I hope this site is somehow useful for all us. There are also other topics available in this site.

Here the link
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RE: Related curricula – 3kyuu study group

Postby terence_hideyoshi » Thu 09.13.2007 1:05 am

Hmm.. SS san, do you mean your class sensei gave you this link? Or you are referring to coco san? So sorry that I'm lost in your post. :( Oh yah! Side track a bit. Just curious where do you learn your Japanese.
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