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short sentence

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short sentence

Postby lomagu » Fri 09.23.2005 7:20 am

I think I understand this sentence, but I'm not sure why some grammar bits are used.

「(人)がお話友達になってあげたらいいんでない?」

It's good (person) became a friend to talk to, isn't it.

If that's what it means, wouldn't it be, あげてよかったんじゃない? Or does it mean (person) should become someone to talk to? Or, it would be nice if..?

Is でない the same as じゃない & ではない?
oh, I also looked up 話友達 in the dictionary but couldn't find it. Is it really a word?
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RE: short sentence

Postby Kates » Fri 09.23.2005 8:52 am

'O-hanashi' is one word, and 'tomodachi' is another. ^^; I'm guessing it means 'a friend to talk to' but I'm not certain.

"Ageru" is used after a -te-form verb (here natte (from naru - to become)) to imply something is done by the speaker for the listener. (Ageru literally means 'to give (from me to you)') And then, really, 'ageru' has a ton of translations (all with similar meaning...) but the "te-ageru" makes me think it's 'to do for X'.

-tara is used as a potential form, so your translation of "it would be nice if" is closer. (ex: Tabetara = if eaten) And I think "ii" is used instead of "yokatta" becuase this action of becoming a friend is 'non-past'. (Or perhaps it's colloquial--since the 'denai' sounds like a dialect to me.)

So... after all that... I think it says something like:
Wouldn't it be nice if [hito? someone?] would become a friend to talk to for you?
But I would dearly appriciate a second opinion. ^_^;
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RE: short sentence

Postby CviCvraeVtMoriar » Fri 09.23.2005 9:45 am

でない = ではない without the topic marker.

Topic markers are typically put into negative sentences for a reason which is difficult to explain.

私は友達ではない = 私は、 友達では、 ない。 = As for me, as for as a friend, do not exist. or As for me, as least as far as being a friend is concerned, I do not exist.

(I know that いる indicates the existence of animate objects. Please, don't point that out, anyone. :) )

で is a predicate marker which indicates as what a person or a thing exists.
So 私は、 友達で、 ある。 = As for me, as a friend, am. or I exist as a friend.

A は would normally be added after で in a negative sentence because you are conscribing as what you do not exist:

私は友達ではない ~= As for me, as far as existing as a friend is concerned, do not exist.
私は友達でない ~= As for me, do not exist as a friend.

「私は友達でない」 This sentence, lacking the second は, might be contrued as being more direct and less reserved, I suppose. Also, the は is omitted when it can not be present. Usually, however, I do not see it absent in an apodosis of a conditional sentence as it was in the sentence which you gave.


"Would it not be a good thing if someone should do the favor of becoming a friend to talk to." That's how I roughly translate the sentence you gave...

And the -ら indicates conditional or temporal relations. The fact that the verb in the protasis (or the subordinate clause of a conditional statement) is in the past means nothing as far as the -ら conditional is concerned. -ら conditional statements can have a future, present, present-contrafactual, or past-contrafactual sense, despite having the principal clause in the past tense - as least with respect to form anyways. -ら temporal statement can have a past, present, or future sense.

方がいい constructions are like the -ら construction. The verb is found in the past. (Actually, I believe there are some circumstances under which you would say 行く方がいい instead of 行った方がいい; I don't know what those are, though.)
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Ni di me non pvlchrvm paterentvr, omnia bona agerem. Dixit: Cvr se deos liqvisse? Qvid se faceret? Di se fecissent foediorem qvam qvem canis ipse videre posset. Qvaeram a qvovis, vel diabolo, vt bellvs a se fiam modo ne malam vitam vivam. Dico, si aliter egissent, fvtvrvm fvisse vt bene viverem. - me
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RE: short sentence

Postby CviCvraeVtMoriar » Fri 09.23.2005 9:49 am

Double post. Sorry.

I wish I had been able to explain でない and why は is used in negative sentences a bit better. I did one of my stay-up-until-8:00 am things again. I really have to stop doing that. It totally screws my brain over. It's just that I am so opposed to the idea of wasting so much time unconscious! So much time is lost to that inexorable and cruel despot, sleep! Anyways, if someone hasn't given a better explanation by the time I am feeling a bit better, then I'll attempt a more coherent one. :)
Last edited by CviCvraeVtMoriar on Fri 09.23.2005 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ni di me non pvlchrvm paterentvr, omnia bona agerem. Dixit: Cvr se deos liqvisse? Qvid se faceret? Di se fecissent foediorem qvam qvem canis ipse videre posset. Qvaeram a qvovis, vel diabolo, vt bellvs a se fiam modo ne malam vitam vivam. Dico, si aliter egissent, fvtvrvm fvisse vt bene viverem. - me
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RE: short sentence

Postby lomagu » Sun 09.25.2005 6:35 am

なるほど、ありがとう。 I see what my friend's trying to say, but really though.. I'm not sure if what he's talking about is past or non-past. It was a strange conversation to begin with involving an おっさん and a 国勢調査.

As for でない, if it's just the same as ではない, then it's probably just a more colloquial form. Maybe it would fall between ではない & じゃない (since では = じゃ). As for である, I've seen it around before, but I'm not sure of it's uses. I heard it was the same as です, but used mainly for writing. From Cvi's example, it sounds the same as です unless it's supposed to have a little different feeling to it which I don't understand.

っていうかさ、Cviさん、寝た方がいいよ。寝なければ、日本語の勉強できない!;)
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RE: short sentence

Postby CviCvraeVtMoriar » Mon 09.26.2005 1:04 am

です, I believe, is a contracted form of であります, though not as formal. だ is the contracted form of である, である being substantially more formal and used only in written Japanese, for the most part. The reason I used である was that I was trying to convey the fact that で is a predicate marker, and not a part of the verb at all.

Personally, I don't think that the use of でない in the sentence you gave was grammatically correct - strictly speaking. However, I think that there are occasions in which only でない and じゃない can be used, with the use of ではない being completely alien to correct grammar. And I am quite certain that he was speaking of the present, not the past... Actually, I am absolutely certain, not quite certain.

Oh, and I am still feeling the effects of not having gone to bed at a prudent hour. Sleeping deficiencies are marvelously amenable to leaving one feeling depleted, stupid, and devoid of creativity.
Last edited by CviCvraeVtMoriar on Mon 09.26.2005 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ni di me non pvlchrvm paterentvr, omnia bona agerem. Dixit: Cvr se deos liqvisse? Qvid se faceret? Di se fecissent foediorem qvam qvem canis ipse videre posset. Qvaeram a qvovis, vel diabolo, vt bellvs a se fiam modo ne malam vitam vivam. Dico, si aliter egissent, fvtvrvm fvisse vt bene viverem. - me
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RE: short sentence

Postby coco » Mon 09.26.2005 1:34 am

lomagu wrote:
I think I understand this sentence, but I'm not sure why some grammar bits are used.

「(人)がお話友達になってあげたらいいんでない?」

It's good (person) became a friend to talk to, isn't it.

If that's what it means, wouldn't it be, あげてよかったんじゃない? Or does it mean (person) should become someone to talk to? Or, it would be nice if..?

Is でない the same as じゃない & ではない?
oh, I also looked up 話友達 in the dictionary but couldn't find it. Is it really a word?


日本語がお分かりになると思うので日本語で書かせて下さいね。

文脈から判断すると「いいんでない?」は おっしゃるとおり
「いいんじゃない?」 「よいのではないですか?」として使われていますので、
it would be nice if..?
になるのではないかと思います。

「話し友達」という阜サはすでに ご存じの通りですが、この言葉自体が仲間言葉のようなものですので 「話し友達」と、丁寧語で使われることは珍しいと思います。

「(AAさんが XXさんの) 話し友達になってあげたら いいんじゃない?」 (未来に対する観測) が、標準語の会話における使い方だと思われます。

「(AAさんが XXさんの)話し友達になってあげれば それは、とても良いことだと思いますが、そう思いませんか?」
という意図の発言だと考えられます。
「あげたら」「あげれぱ」は同じ意味で、どちらを使ってもかまいません。

以下は補足です。
「お話し友達」という言葉づかいをするのは通常、女性である可柏ォが高いのですが、
どうやら 男性の友人のお言葉のようですね。

「いいんでない?」 という使い方は、北海道などでよく使われるようです。
「いいんでないかい?」 という北海道弁は 標準語の「いいんじゃない?」と同義です。
「いいんでない?」「いいんでないかい?」 は方言からの転化として
北海道以外でも 好んで使われことがある阜サです(仲間言葉として)。

「いいんでないかい?」は、「いんでないかい?」と発音されることが多々あります。
同様に 「いいんでない?」 も 「いんでない?」と聞こえます。


ただし「いいんでない?」「いいんでないかい?」 という阜サをする方が
話し友達」 と、「お」をつけて使うことも あまり考えられません。

話者が男性で、 北海道などの出身であった場合は 「話し友達」に「お」がつく可柏ォが低く、もしも話者が女性で、話し友達に丁寧語として 「お」をつけていた場合には、「いいんでない?」との統一性にやや 違和感を感じます。

これらのことを考えると、lomagu さんがお聞きになった会話は
非常に難易度が高かったのではないでしょうか。

とはいえ、書き言葉と違って、文法通りに会話をする人の方が少ないのもまた事実。
このあたりが難しいですよね。。。
Last edited by coco on Mon 09.26.2005 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: short sentence

Postby lomagu » Thu 10.06.2005 9:42 am

cocoさん、本当にありがとうございます!:D

This reply is a bit late.. oops. I understand what cocoさん is saying for the most part, but would someone be able to translate just so I know I'm not getting anything confused. Some parts for me are a little 微妙...

よろちく。
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