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If TJP were a family...

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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Thu 10.11.2007 4:26 pm

AJBryant wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:
You can find "misuses" of them in Shakespeare and the King James Bible (instances of both "who" substituted for "whom", and vice versa).


I hate it when people do this.

Has it never occurred to you that Shakespeare was not writing prose, but DIALOGUE? His grammar was FINE in the poetry.


Even so, my point was that the confusion between who and whom is not a recent thing.

But the dialogue comes from people of high societal standing, e.g.:

"BOYET: Now, madam, summon up your dearest spirits.
Consider who the King your father sends,
To whom he sends, and what's his embassy." (Love's Labor's Lost)

"MACBETH: ...but wail his fall, who I myself struck down." (Macbeth)

"TIMON: Think it a bastard whom the oracle
Hath doubtfully pronounc'd thy throat shall cut" (Timon of Athens)

All of those are nobles, not clowns or rustics.

Here's one example from the sonnets:

"So is it not with me as with that Muse
Stirr'd by a painted beauty to his verse,
Who heaven itself for ornament doth use" (23)

Again, the only point I was really trying to make is that the confusion between who and whom has been there for pretty much all of modern English (and it may even go back to Middle English).

The "proper" use of language is -- and always has been -- a factor of how much education one has, how much one pays attention to what is and is not correct, and what one is trying to communicate.


That's not entirely the case; in Shakespeare's time, English was not a prestige language, and so there were no people prescribing how the language should be used. Even if Shakespeare had wondered how to use who and whom, he wouldn't have had any source to look at. It wasn't until the later 17th and 18th centuries that people published prescriptive grammars.
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby Hatori » Thu 10.11.2007 4:44 pm

TheIrishSin wrote:

I'm sorry, I came to this thread to discuss what part of the TJP family I would be.

Not grammar.

Also, I'm a teenager in highschool.
I'm one of the few who spell out the whole word.
and at least try at the grammar,
Feel lucky your not getting slang and abbreviations.

:D


I agree with you. We need to talk about our TJP FAMILY!!! Also, our older members should appreciate that some teenagers here actually try to type without innopropriate abbreviations; also that we try our best with grammar!!
我是老师。我是老师。我是老师。我是老师。我是老师。我是老师。我是老师。
lol
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby chikara » Thu 10.11.2007 7:32 pm

TheIrishSin wrote:
I'm sorry, I came to this thread to discuss what part of the TJP family I would be.

Not grammar.

Also, I'm a teenager in highschool.
I'm one of the few who spell out the whole word.
and at least try at the grammar,
Feel lucky your not getting slang and abbreviations.

If the above is indicative of your knowledge of grammar then it is just as well you're not in this thread to discuss that particular subject ;)
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby AJBryant » Thu 10.11.2007 8:42 pm

Hm. I can see that...

Dagnabbit.


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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby two_heads_talking » Fri 10.12.2007 9:05 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
That's not entirely the case; in Shakespeare's time, English was not a prestige language, and so there were no people prescribing how the language should be used. Even if Shakespeare had wondered how to use who and whom, he wouldn't have had any source to look at. It wasn't until the later 17th and 18th centuries that people published prescriptive grammars.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Shakespeare

You can refer here and a few other places but it states in passing that Shakespear was educated at a grammar school that was within 1/4 mile of his home. Also, the 17th century and 18th century is quite a long time. while I don't have the records in front of my, I believe those that published the grammars were teaching it before they published it. Again, whether or not William was educated by any of them I don' t know. Since he was poducing some of his plays, and etc. by the 17th century, I suppose one could say he was educated before and therefore anything published after such dates would not impact him, however, I do believe he constantly updated his education. I have no other proof on that though.

he was educated in greek and latin and both of those were considered prestige languages and the "translations" or "definitions" of "who" and "whom" are not as direct in latin, they are very specific in greek. IIRC.

http://mysite.du.edu/~etuttle/classics/nugreek/lesson6.htm

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/who%20whom

http://mysite.du.edu/~etuttle/classics/latin/latin8.htm

those are just a few links I managed to drag out of the old brain bin. some are quite confusing if one does not have a basic understanding. Anyways, I am not trying to be argumentative, just pointing out that while things evolve, there are still rules that dictate their use, until though disuse, they devolve, which, asyou stated Chris, is where this grammar principle is headed.
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Fri 10.12.2007 1:20 pm

That's a very good point; the distinction between "who" and "whom" had precedent in the grammars of Latin and Greek; which is probably why grammarians decided that the distinction should be preserved in English (they could have just as easily said "No other question words have objective and subjective case, so why should 'who'?" That would have been more logical and consistent from the standpoint of English).

Obviously we can never know whether all those misuses of who and whom were intentional choices by Shakespeare or whether he was just going by his own natural idiom. I personally suspect the latter but I don't really have any conclusive proof. (Other case problems show up in Shakespeare as well; there's a famous example of "all debts are cleared between you and I").

It is interesting, though, that things don't seem to have changed much between the 16th century and now. Grammatical case is not completely gone -- no native speaker, even an uneducated one, would ever say "Him is my favorite teacher" or "I got this from she last night", and you won't find mistakes like that in the literary canon either. But the who/whom mixups and the mixups with plural subjects and objects (i.e. the "you and I" mentioned above) seem to have existed for at least 400 years.
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby two_heads_talking » Fri 10.12.2007 1:54 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
That's a very good point; the distinction between "who" and "whom" had precedent in the grammars of Latin and Greek; which is probably why grammarians decided that the distinction should be preserved in English (they could have just as easily said "No other question words have objective and subjective case, so why should 'who'?" That would have been more logical and consistent from the standpoint of English).

snippity snippers

But the who/whom mixups and the mixups with plural subjects and objects (i.e. the "you and I" mentioned above) seem to have existed for at least 400 years.


I would have to agree with you there. I think the Latin/Greek would occur since grammarians will look to those as our (English) language base, therefore it might seem practical to keep the original. but I agree, in all honesty the whole who/whom thing can get downright goofy at times. It seems to me that if the Greek and Latin speakers would have fixed it ages ago, we wouldn't have these problems now.. (lol, yeah I kid.. ) :D
Last edited by two_heads_talking on Fri 10.12.2007 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby Mike Cash » Sat 10.13.2007 7:05 am

AJBryant wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:
You can find "misuses" of them in Shakespeare and the King James Bible (instances of both "who" substituted for "whom", and vice versa).


I hate it when people do this.

Has it never occurred to you that Shakespeare was not writing prose, but DIALOGUE? His grammar was FINE in the poetry.

Just as today, if I were writing a script, I could get a lot of information about characters across to viewers merely by doing this:

A: I din't do nothin, yo! Don' be jackin' me, homes.
B: I swear, I didn't do it! Please go away.
C: It wasnae I what done it, laddie. Now hie ye on hoom.
D: Bogus, dude -- no way it was me! Quit harshing my mellow.
E. As God is my witness, I was not involved. Now kindly leave me in peace.
F: Chit, meng, joo can't pin dat on me. Screw joo!
G: I say, old man, that's a bit of misdirection, what. My man will see you out.

And so forth.

Shakespeare knew this, and his audiences did, as well.


And let us remember how Twain starts off Adventures of Huckleberry Finn

EXPLANATORY

In this book a number of dialects are used, to wit: the Missouri negro
dialect; the extremest form of the backwoods Southwestern dialect; the
ordinary "Pike County" dialect; and four modified varieties of this last.
The shadings have not been done in a haphazard fashion, or by guesswork;
but painstakingly, and with the trustworthy guidance and support of
personal familiarity with these several forms of speech.

I make this explanation for the reason that without it many readers would
suppose that all these characters were trying to talk alike and not
succeeding.

THE AUTHOR.
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby Mike Cash » Sat 10.13.2007 7:15 am

Hatori wrote:

I agree with you. We need to talk about our TJP FAMILY!!! Also, our older members should appreciate that some teenagers here actually try to type without inappropriate abbreviations; also that we try our best with grammar!!


That's like saying wives should be grateful when their husbands don't beat them.

It reminds me of a story about a White House party in celebration of the passing and signing of Civil Rights legislation during the Johnson administration. Many prominent African-Americans were at the party and everyone was thanking President Johnson for signing the bill.

One gentleman, and I wish I could recall his name, didn't thank the President. Instead he asked (paraphrasing here), "Mr. President, do I have to thank you for giving me my birthright?"

So, no....I don't feel it incumbent upon me to feel appreciative when our teen friends type without abbreviations. That's the bare minimum I would expect of anyone with the slightest desire to not appear an idiot.
Last edited by Mike Cash on Sat 10.13.2007 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby evana » Sat 10.13.2007 10:31 am

hi..good evening :)
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sat 10.13.2007 11:14 am

Hi. Please use the introduction board to post greetings -- do not respond to a thread if you don't have something to add to the discussion. I suggest reading the Rules and the FAQ if you haven't already.
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby tanuki » Sat 10.13.2007 11:19 am

Talk about an annoying avatar! What ever happened to the discussion about banning animated avatars?
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby hyperconjugated » Sat 10.13.2007 11:52 am

Few members wanted them banned,
few members didn't, most members
weren't interested in the discussion?
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby HeyItsMatt » Sat 10.13.2007 12:56 pm

Mike Cash wrote:
Hatori wrote:

I agree with you. We need to talk about our TJP FAMILY!!! Also, our older members should appreciate that some teenagers here actually try to type without inappropriate abbreviations; also that we try our best with grammar!!


That's like saying wives should be grateful when their husbands don't beat them.

It reminds me of a story about a White House party in celebration of the passing and signing of Civil Rights legislation during the Johnson administration. Many prominent African-Americans were at the party and everyone was thanking President Johnson for signing the bill.

One gentleman, and I wish I could recall his name, didn't thank the President. Instead he asked (paraphrasing here), "Mr. President, do I have to thank you for giving me my birthright?"

So, no....I don't feel it incumbent upon me to feel appreciative when our teen friends type without abbreviations. That's the bare minimum I would expect of anyone with the slightest desire to not appear an idiot.


You know, I think good grammar and speaking intelligibly without abbreviations is important, and I wish I had been taught more grammar in school, but isn't it a little excessive to equate bad grammar with wife beating or denying African Americans their rights? I'm sure wasn't your intention, but still...
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby katafei » Sat 10.13.2007 1:12 pm

ははははは
I love that Avatar!!!!

Hatoriちゃん, as お祖母さん of the family, I greatly appreciate the efforts of the younsters of this family to write proper English ;)
昔昔, コンピューターはない
インターネットのフォーラムはない
チャットルはない*
how we would have behaved..., 知らない
edit:*this should be past tense. The joke is on me, but I really can't conjure it up right now...

How are things at school these day? You trying hard???

About that grammar matter. This keeps popping up around my ears. I know there is a quote from a 17th century British writer getting all worked up about 'the decay of the English language..'
It pains me I cannot find it anymore.

However, 'twas Bernard Shaw who wrote,
"it is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman despise him."

分かっていますよ。。。a lot of forum regulars will not identify with the term Englishman, but if you replace it by 'native English speaker', I'm sure the quote will stand firm.
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