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They tell you me can spell?

英語を勉強している方のためのフォーラムです。練習のために英語の文章を投稿してもかまわなく、英語の文法・語彙に関する質問をしてもけっこうです。

They tell you me can spell?

Postby coco » Sat 10.27.2007 1:19 am

I have some questions in this English sentence.

Although some of my friends that I know from Japan tell you me can spell anything in hiragana so why not learn it first then tackle the harder ones with more symbols and characters.
----Quoted from this post.

I assume it might be either 1 or 2.

1) Some of my friends ( I know they are from Japan) tell you that I can spell anything in hiragana.
2) Some of my friends from Japan tell me that you can spell anything in hiragana.

...or I can't even discern the difference between 1 and 2.

1)日本(出身の何人か)の友人は、ひらがなでなんでも書けると(あなたに?)言います。
2)日本(出身の何人か)の友人は、(あなたは)ひらがなでなんでも書けると(私に)言います。

I couldn't figure out what is "more symbols/characters"

Does "more symbols" mean " characters which look like symbols.(記号みたいな文字)"?
e.g.
凹凸 ← more symbols?

Does " more characters" mean " characters which have many strokes(画数の多い文字)"?
e.g.
鑿、 鬱 ← more characters?

Any comments would be much appreciated.
よろしくお願いします。
Last edited by coco on Sat 10.27.2007 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: They tell you me can spell?

Postby prep_girl_Nessa » Sat 10.27.2007 1:29 am

coco wrote:

Although some of my friends that I know from Japan tell you me can spell anything in hiragana so why not learn it first then tackle the harder ones with more symbols and characters.


This post actually makes no sense to me either, but I think what he was trying to say was:

Since some of my friends that I know from Japan tell me you can spell anything in hiragana, why not learn it first and then tackle the harder systems with more symbols and characters.

I take that what he means by the 'more symbols and characters' to mean that Kanji has a lot more characters (like 1000s) than hiragana (which has... 45-ish, I can't remember right now).

-This post may be completely wrong given my state of mind right now.-
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RE: They tell you me can spell?

Postby katafei » Sat 10.27.2007 2:50 am

Don't spend too much time on the English in that post, coco-san. I think it was written very quickly and so corrections didn't go further than halfway.
friends that I know from Japan tell you me

Was probably
friends tell you
first and was meant to change into
friends tell me
something like that.

The whole post probably mirrors thoughts rather than grammar.

(O, and I wouldn't spend too much time on the English in this post either ;) )
Last edited by katafei on Sat 10.27.2007 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: They tell you me can spell?

Postby miaumiao » Sat 10.27.2007 3:50 am

Cocoさん, Here is my share:

I would guess it is nr. 2.

It looks as though the words “me” and “you” have to switch places for this sentence to make sense. Furthermore, quotation marks are needed for what his friends told him; It seems the author was citing his friends. Here is the sentence again, including the mentioned corrections:

Although some of my friends that I know from Japan tell me: “You can spell anything in hiragana, so why not learn it first then tackle the harder ones with more symbols and characters later?”


Note that quotation marks are not needed if you use the word "that", just like you did for your nr. 2. If you say it that way though, what his friends told him ends with the word "hiragana". The rest is what the author himself states.

Like this:
…some of my friends from Japan tell me that you can spell anything in hiragana, so why not learn it first then tackle the harder ones with more symbols and characters later?


It is also possible that his Japanese friends told him the part after the word "hiragana", but because of missing punctuation, we might never know it for sure.

It would be my preference to choose another way of telling the first part. "...some of my friends that I know..." sounds awkward. You seem to have noticed it yourself ;)


About “more symbols and characters”:

I believe the author was just talking about kanji, using his own words. You should not think too much into this. Summarizing: “symbols and characters” = kanji.

Hopefully the author himself sees this post and clarifies it, for the case that our conclusions were wrong.
Last edited by miaumiao on Sat 10.27.2007 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: They tell you me can spell?

Postby ss » Sat 10.27.2007 7:08 am

Although some of my friends that I know from Japan tell you me can spell anything in hiragana so why not learn it first then tackle the harder ones with more symbols and characters.


Coco-san, did you notice that was one sentence, a long one though? ;)

I too cannot answer for the OP, but this is what I guess:
Although some of my friends (that I know from Japan) tell me that I can spell anything in hiragana, so why not learn hiragana first, then tackle the harder ones along with the symbols and characters.

Symbols can be of many types, these are also symbols > 《》≦≧【】+−±×÷%=≠<>&$¢£♂♀→←↑↓√♭♪#

-------
[spoiler]Coco-san,
Goodness, my imagination is running wild. Sometimes, I wish I lived in a world with no language and I could communicate by mind reading.

Occasionally, I have hard time expressing myself for certain issues, somehow the subject is just inappropriate for me to interpret. Hence, I can understand why Papa sometimes likes to encourage questions ---- "What are you *trying* to say? Then maybe we can help" or even a more straight forward one --- "You need to learn ENGLISH before you can learn a foreign language, mate." *Ahem*

My colleague told me a joke when she was in a XXX hotel room.
There was a sign >> "Please to bathe inside the tub."

When I was in S.A, I noticed a mini sign board when approaching a main road >>
“STOP, Drive sideway!”.
My boss then said:"There are probably many crabs here."

I fear the Original Post might turn out like --- I saw sea shell on the sea shore >> eventually became >> I play see-saw.

^_^" [/spoiler]
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RE: They tell you me can spell?

Postby Chris Hart » Sat 10.27.2007 8:33 am

Coco -
Switch the "you" and "me". Sometimes a sentence like you posted is used in spoken form when the second half of the sentence has a subject closer to everyone or anyone, but those words wouldn't quite sound right.
-.. .   -.- -.-. ---.. ..- ..-. ...-

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RE: They tell you me can spell?

Postby Noob » Sat 10.27.2007 9:48 am

looks like the op was thinking outloud. Aside from the bad grammar, "symbols and characters" are used here to mean the same thing. However, a symbol would most likely refer to kanji, and a character would most likely refer to hirogana or katakana.

Characters are usually "symbols" used in writing, that symbolize a sound.
Symbols, can symbolize sounds, words, feelings etc...
Example:
@ is the "symbol" for "at".
か is the "character" for "ka".
Hope this helps.
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RE: They tell you me can spell?

Postby coco » Sat 10.27.2007 10:37 am

Nessaさん, Katafeiさん,miaumiaoさん,、SSさん, Chris Hartさん,Noobさん
Thank you very much for all of your reples. :)

I have a problem with YOU.
Sometimes it's hard to tell a specific YOU from YOU as "no one in particular" usage. Then I thought YOU in this context might be a special usage of "no one in particular".

As you say, if "you " and "me( I)" have been placed in the other order, it looks easier to me.

Summarizing: “symbols and characters” = kanji.
Welecome to TJP,miaumiao-san.
This is clear and comprehensible.
I think the characters that you are not familiar with looks symbols. For instance, Greek alphabet, especially lowercase characters look like symbols to me. People who don't know Japanese letters might think ひらがな are symbols.
So I was wondering what kind of 漢字 looks like symbols.

did you notice that was one sentence, a long one though?

SS-san, yes, after reading Nessa-san's post, I notesed. :p I'll edited it.
[spoiler]
"Please to bathe inside the tub."

“STOP, Drive sideway!”.

I suspect both signs were written by me. :D
Foreign language learners make tons of funny tales. :D[/spoiler]

a symbol would most likely refer to kanji, and a character would most likely refer to hirogana or katakana.

Nobe さん はじめまして。
Yes, that is very reasnoble.

みなさん ご説明ありがとうございました。 :)
--
I didn't intend to embarrass OP. But I apologize to OP. I am sorry.
Last edited by coco on Sat 10.27.2007 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: They tell you me can spell?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sat 10.27.2007 10:44 am

You should not apologize to the OP. On a forum with many non-native English speakers, people should try their best to write comprehensible posts.

Even for native speakers sometimes it is hard to tell whether "you" is specific or general. Most of the time the context makes it clear, though.
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RE: They tell you me can spell?

Postby ss » Sat 10.27.2007 11:06 am

That's right, it's not our intention to embarrase anyone. I can't imagine how many mistakes were made in my previous posts. So, don't worry about it. There are always good stuffs to learn from one another. ^_^

[spoiler]I suspect both signs were written by me. :D
Nah~, not from Japan, other places. ;) [/spoiler]
Last edited by ss on Sat 10.27.2007 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: They tell you me can spell?

Postby Gundaetiapo » Sat 10.27.2007 11:33 am

I've encountered a few cases where it was genuinely ambiguous which usage of "you" was used. Generally if it's the "no one in particular" usage, you can substitute with "one".

○Some of my friends from Japan tell me that you can spell anything in hiragana.
○Some of my friends from Japan tell me that one can spell anything in hiragana.

Both have the same meaning.

Example of literal (ie specific) you:

○Could you pass the salt?
×Could one pass the salt?

“STOP, Drive sideway!”.


You just have to buy the right car to comply.
Last edited by Gundaetiapo on Sat 10.27.2007 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: They tell you me can spell?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sat 10.27.2007 11:56 am

The problem with that is that "one" often sounds affected and old-fashioned, particularly in casual speech. To me, "Some of my friends from Japan tell me that you can spell anything in hiragana" is unlikely to be interpreted by a native speaker as meaning the specific you -- how would these friends from Japan even know me, and why would they be telling this person that I can spell anything in hiragana?
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RE: They tell you me can spell?

Postby HeyItsMatt » Sat 10.27.2007 12:17 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
The problem with that is that "one" often sounds affected and old-fashioned, particularly in casual speech. To me, "Some of my friends from Japan tell me that you can spell anything in hiragana" is unlikely to be interpreted by a native speaker as meaning the specific you -- how would these friends from Japan even know me, and why would they be telling this person that I can spell anything in hiragana?


Yeah, I agree, I'd be surprised to hear people saying "one" in casual speech anymore. I think he just meant that it could be used as a way to determine which type of "you" is being used in an ambiguous sentence though (not that the one in question is necessarily ambiguous once the "me" and "you" are reversed).
-Matt
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RE: They tell you me can spell?

Postby coco » Sat 10.27.2007 10:54 pm

Yudanさん、 SSさん、 Gundaetiapoさん、 HeyItMatttさん
ご説明ありがとうございます。

Even for native speakers sometimes it is hard to tell whether "you" is specific or general.

母語話者でも迷うことがあるというのは初耳でした。
私などは「You」を含んだ諺などを対面で言われたら、お手上げ状態になると思います。

Generally if it's the "no one in particular" usage, you can substitute with "one".

It is a very effective way to find out since Japanese あなた/あなたたち don't have a "no one in particular" usage.

--
Thank you (plural?)for all of your replies. :)
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RE: They tell you me can spell?

Postby Wakannai » Sat 10.27.2007 11:16 pm

Yea, I see people get confused all the time whether you is specific or general, especially on forums replying to a previous post it can be very common.

Sometimes there are set phrases where the you is almost always general. "You would think........"

I think the characters that you are not familiar with looks symbols.


That's pretty much the heart of it. If you know a kanji it is a character. If you don't know the kanji, it could be considered a symbol. But, really, I just think it's another redundant phrase, like "signs and portents" They crop up all over the place.
Last edited by Wakannai on Sat 10.27.2007 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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