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Dual Citizenship?

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RE: Dual Citizenship?

Postby two_heads_talking » Wed 12.05.2007 11:09 am

Orcrist wrote:

Also, before being able to even apply for Japanese citizenship you would have to live in Japan for atleast 5 years straight. ;)


unless you are marrying into a japanese family.. My comrade in the military did that. His wife had no brothers, he denounced his american citizenship, and took their family name as well. (obviously his case is an extreme and limited one, but it does occur)
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RE: Dual Citizenship?

Postby Mike Cash » Wed 12.05.2007 11:18 am

Orcrist wrote:
Mike Cash wrote:
Divorce kills a spouse visa, but has no deleterious effect upon permanent residency status. Married permanent residents who get divorced can continue living in Japan.


My bad yes, completely forgot about permanent residency. Discarded it as "just a step".


And let us remember that divorce is not the only way married status can come to an end. There is also death.

I have read many accounts from foreigners who found themselves holding only a spouse visa and suddenly being divorced by their Japanese wife. A common thread, for some reason, seems to be too-close physical and psychological connection between the Japanese wife and her mother. They are usually desperately seeking urgent advice on what their options are for remaining in Japan (usually due to children) after the divorce, and the end result usually is "you're screwed, dude".

The time to apply for permanent residency is the minute one becomes eligible and while the marriage is still going well.

Of course, the situation also comes up where the wife is paranoid her foreign husband may divorce her so she resists the change to permanent residency out of fear of being unceremoniously dumped.
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RE: Dual Citizenship?

Postby everdream » Wed 12.05.2007 2:25 pm

So, how would pensions work out?
Would you need a Japanese citizenship in order to be eligable for one?
Also, if for example, someone lived in Japan for a large amount of years, but then wanted to go to their home country for retirement, would that person be able to get a pension from their home country?
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RE: Dual Citizenship?

Postby Ken Pro » Wed 12.05.2007 3:08 pm

two_heads_talking wrote:
Orcrist wrote:

Also, before being able to even apply for Japanese citizenship you would have to live in Japan for atleast 5 years straight. ;)


unless you are marrying into a japanese family.. My comrade in the military did that. His wife had no brothers, he denounced his american citizenship, and took their family name as well. (obviously his case is an extreme and limited one, but it does occur)


That's interesting. Was it a mutual agreement?
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RE: Dual Citizenship?

Postby two_heads_talking » Wed 12.05.2007 3:47 pm

ken, to be honest I don't know all the details.

But I do know that there is a tradition in Japan where the 2nd son of a family will marry into a family with no son, in order to keep the family name continuing.

It just so happened that he was the 3rd son in his family and since the family name would end otherwise, I do believe he did it to help. I don't believe they asked him to, and I do not believe he did it for any other reason than to continue the family name. They accepted his decision and that is that really.
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RE: Dual Citizenship?

Postby guitarplayer7694 » Wed 12.05.2007 5:02 pm

family name are important i presume?
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RE: Dual Citizenship?

Postby Orcrist » Wed 12.05.2007 5:41 pm

two_heads_talking wrote:
ken, to be honest I don't know all the details.

But I do know that there is a tradition in Japan where the 2nd son of a family will marry into a family with no son, in order to keep the family name continuing.

It just so happened that he was the 3rd son in his family and since the family name would end otherwise, I do believe he did it to help. I don't believe they asked him to, and I do not believe he did it for any other reason than to continue the family name. They accepted his decision and that is that really.


That's actually very interesting to know. I have heard of those that take on the Japanese family name to decrease chances of discrimination (sounds somewhat naive to me tho). Which makes me wonder, would it also be possible for the children to adopt their mother's family name instead of their father's family name?

Mike Cash wrote:
And let us remember that divorce is not the only way married status can come to an end. There is also death.

I have read many accounts from foreigners who found themselves holding only a spouse visa and suddenly being divorced by their Japanese wife. A common thread, for some reason, seems to be too-close physical and psychological connection between the Japanese wife and her mother. They are usually desperately seeking urgent advice on what their options are for remaining in Japan (usually due to children) after the divorce, and the end result usually is "you're screwed, dude".

The time to apply for permanent residency is the minute one becomes eligible and while the marriage is still going well.

Of course, the situation also comes up where the wife is paranoid her foreign husband may divorce her so she resists the change to permanent residency out of fear of being unceremoniously dumped.


That's pretty harsh in case of death, even if the person who's Japanese spouse died is left with children?

Forgive me for going slightly offtopic; but how is the mother-daughter relationship between Japanese so much different, and how would that stimulate the wife divorcing her (foreign) husband out of the blue? I have read about some divorces, where reasons such as "just marrying you for those awesome haflling babies" come up. So something less superficial sounds interesting to me.

And I agree, one should apply for permanent residency asap when trying to build up a life in Japan. And let's be honest; if a couple can't agree on that, they're not fit for marriage anyway.
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RE: Dual Citizenship?

Postby Igirisu_gaz » Wed 12.05.2007 10:48 pm

guitarplayer7694 wrote:
family name are important i presume?


There's no cookie cutter answer for that. My wife to be doesn't wish to retain her surname when we get married, prefering to change it to mine. However a friend in the neighbouring city did not change his name and neither did she, the reason being neither wanted a foreign name attached.



Orcrist wrote:

And I agree, one should apply for permanent residency asap when trying to build up a life in Japan. And let's be honest; if a couple can't agree on that, they're not fit for marriage anyway.


I don't agree with that to be entirely honest, its all a matter of perspective. There can be any number of reasons for wanting to retain ones nationality, such as the option to move your family over to your country of origin should the need arise. Having couple swith different nationalities offers a large degree of flexibility in that situation. Doesn't seem to me like being fit for marriage has anything to do with it.
Last edited by Igirisu_gaz on Wed 12.05.2007 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Dual Citizenship?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 12.05.2007 10:59 pm

Permanent residency is not the same thing as citizenship, it doesn't make you lose your nationality.
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RE: Dual Citizenship?

Postby Orcrist » Thu 12.06.2007 6:53 am

Igirisu_gaz wrote:
I don't agree with that to be entirely honest, its all a matter of perspective. There can be any number of reasons for wanting to retain ones nationality, such as the option to move your family over to your country of origin should the need arise. Having couple swith different nationalities offers a large degree of flexibility in that situation. Doesn't seem to me like being fit for marriage has anything to do with it.


Of course, this I understand. But as Yudan Taiteki said; I wasn't talking about giving up one's nationality. My point being is that a couple that is (about to be) married would of course love their spouse to be able to stay in the country to take care of the children and their own life in case the "native spouse" dies.
And to me it seems that if either one of the people involved in the relationship can't agree on that, then there is a certain amount of distrust or disagreement between them. And that isn't a very solid foundation to base a "promise untill death" on.
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RE: Dual Citizenship?

Postby Mike Cash » Thu 12.06.2007 8:36 am

In the case of the death of the native spouse, if the foreign spouse doesn't have permanent residency and there are minor children then the foreign spouse can apply for special permission to remain in Japan and raise the children until they're something like 18 or 20.
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RE: Dual Citizenship?

Postby two_heads_talking » Thu 12.06.2007 11:12 am

Orcrist wrote:

That's actually very interesting to know. I have heard of those that take on the Japanese family name to decrease chances of discrimination (sounds somewhat naive to me tho). Which makes me wonder, would it also be possible for the children to adopt their mother's family name instead of their father's family name?.


In my friends case, when he renounced his citizenship, he also changed his last name to hers. therefore his family name became hers. Again I don't know all the details of how his parents reacted to this, as I didn't know them, but I was certainly aware that many of his military buds were pretty upset (not that their opinion mattered one bit in the situation).

As far as discrimination is concerned, my friend is about as whitebread american as one can get. With the exception of a Japanese last name and fairly good Japanese (we were both in a linguist batallion) there would be no way to mistake him for Japanese. None whatsoever.

Unfortunately when he relocated to Japan, we lost contact as he never left a forwarding address, so I can't tell you exactly how he is doing either.

I do miss his family, especially his kids. they were bilingual from day one and it was always funny when they would mix English and Japanese in a sentence and not ever realise it.

They would speak japanese to his wife and English to him. they would reply in Tapanese to anyone speaking Japanese and English to anyone speaking English. But, when those of us who would speak both Japanese and English would come over, the kids would sort of lose their ability to descern between English and Japanese and would speak a sort of Japanglish that was cute as hell.
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