Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - 2007: Year of the Tch?

2007: Year of the Tch?

NO SPAM ALLOWED! Discuss stuff not related to Japan or Japanese. The rules are the same in this forum as in the other forums.

RE: 2007: Year of the Tch?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 12.10.2007 9:28 pm

AJBryant wrote:
JaySee wrote:
AJBryant wrote:
but I *have* noticed the increasing lack of a grasp of past perfect and general basic grammar.


You have to realise though that change/adaptation (or deterioration as some would call it) is actually something natural to language in general which has been going on since humans first started talking, so I really don't see why people need to get all wound up about it. If people living 100 years ago would listen to you speaking, they would probably make a comment similar to the one you made here about the way you say things.


Have you ever read Dickens or Austen?

I rather think you are wrong about this.


"Woodhouse was soon ready for his tea; and when he had drank his tea he was quite ready to go home..." (Emma)

"He had drank wine that evening (or I fancied it), until his eyes were bloodshot." (Dickens)

if you KNOW that "less" is for quantity, and "fewer" is for number, there is no excuse but laziness for NOT using them correctly.


I know that some people want everyone to use "less" only for quantity, despite the fact that "less" has been used for number for 1200 years, and the "rule" was only formulated in the 18th century. It's not so much laziness as just a lack of any positive motivation to do so.
Last edited by Yudan Taiteki on Mon 12.10.2007 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

RE: 2007: Year of the Tch?

Postby Wakannai » Mon 12.10.2007 10:17 pm

No better way to ruin your grammar skills than reading classics:P
Wakannai
 
Posts: 658
Joined: Thu 10.18.2007 6:38 am

RE: 2007: Year of the Tch?

Postby JaySee » Tue 12.11.2007 6:22 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
I know that some people want everyone to use "less" only for quantity, despite the fact that "less" has been used for number for 1200 years, and the "rule" was only formulated in the 18th century. It's not so much laziness as just a lack of any positive motivation to do so.


Actually the same goes for some of the past participles; up to the 18th century forms like "had chose" and "had wrote" were commonly found in everyday speech, until so-called language experts decided that the past tense and the past participle should be different (possibly under the influence of Latin), so the forms "had written" and "had chosen" were proscribed.
JaySee
 
Posts: 314
Joined: Sat 08.04.2007 12:04 am
Location: Tokyo
Native language: Dutch
Gender: Male

RE: 2007: Year of the Tch?

Postby Mike Cash » Tue 12.11.2007 6:33 am

JaySee wrote:
AJBryant wrote:
but I *have* noticed the increasing lack of a grasp of past perfect and general basic grammar.


If people living 100 years ago would listen to you speaking, they would probably make a comment similar to the one you made here about the way you say things.


"were to"

And I'm not worked up about change, although I do embrace my curmudgeon status. I'm just noticing things from afar and seeking confirmation as to the validity of my observations.
Never underestimate my capacity for pettiness.
User avatar
Mike Cash
 
Posts: 2737
Joined: Sun 08.20.2006 3:38 am
Native language: English

RE: 2007: Year of the Tch?

Postby JaySee » Tue 12.11.2007 7:59 am

Thank you for that correction. I could use the excuse here that I'm not a native speaker, but admittedly my native language Dutch has a similar construction which people get 'wrong' in exactly the same way they tend to in English.
JaySee
 
Posts: 314
Joined: Sat 08.04.2007 12:04 am
Location: Tokyo
Native language: Dutch
Gender: Male

RE: 2007: Year of the Tch?

Postby two_heads_talking » Tue 12.11.2007 10:05 am

Mike Cash wrote:


And I'm not worked up about change, although I do embrace my curmudgeon status. I'm just noticing things from afar and seeking confirmation as to the validity of my observations.


From my perspective Mike, I think it will resonate more with you being isolated from it on a consistant basis. I notice it, but I believe after a point I hear it so much I become numb to it. Since you don't hear it all the frequently, as your daily use of English must be limited at best, it it more noticeable to you.

Your observation is valid, as can be attested to here in this small thread. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like it will be getting any better before it gets worse.
User avatar
two_heads_talking
 
Posts: 4137
Joined: Thu 04.06.2006 11:03 am
Native language: English

RE: 2007: Year of the Tch?

Postby bloodrose » Tue 12.11.2007 10:33 pm

i agree with Tspoonami, i hear it too when younger girls speak and they want to have an attitude. i'm not a english major nor do i speak english well, but i've noticed the poor grammar as well. i hate it when people say 'fishes'.
bloodrose
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue 10.30.2007 4:26 pm

RE: 2007: Year of the Tch?

Postby Shirasagi » Wed 12.12.2007 6:15 am

bloodrose wrote:
i agree with Tspoonami, i hear it too when younger girls speak and they want to have an attitude. i'm not a english major nor do i speak english well, but i've noticed the poor grammar as well. i hate it when people say 'fishes'.


From Webster:

Main Entry:
Pronunciation: \ˈfish\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural fish or fish·es
Josh Reyer
------------
頓ニ纜ヲ斬テ大荒ニ入レ。
長岡桃嶺房成
Shirasagi
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed 02.14.2007 10:50 am

RE: 2007: Year of the Tch?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 12.12.2007 10:15 am

The "fishes" issue has come up here before -- I think the survival of the form is perhaps due to the influence of the King James Bible, e.g.:

"For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them. " (Ecclesiastes)

"He saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? go and see. And when they knew, they say, Five, and two fishes. " (Mark)

Also the expression "sleeping with the fishes" is somewhat common.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

RE: 2007: Year of the Tch?

Postby Shirasagi » Wed 12.12.2007 10:44 am

For what it's worth, in Old English the word "fisc" (pronounced "fish") was a strong masculine noun, which meant that the plural was "fiscas" (pronounced pretty much like "fishes"). The use of "fish" as the plural is a relatively recent one.

Regarding the general topic of "proper grammar", it's often seemed to me that people are often fine with language change, as long as it doesn't happen in their lifetime. English loses the 2nd person singular pronoun? No problem! But try and use "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun (which English once had and has now lost)? Crime against the language!
Josh Reyer
------------
頓ニ纜ヲ斬テ大荒ニ入レ。
長岡桃嶺房成
Shirasagi
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed 02.14.2007 10:50 am

RE: 2007: Year of the Tch?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 12.12.2007 12:08 pm

That shows a poor grasp of the history of the language as well; gender-neutral "they" is very old in English; there are numerous examples in Shakespeare and the KJV, and some sources I've seen trace it back even to Middle English. Some people seem to think that it's a recent PC-inspired development, but it is not.

It's a pretty common problem with usage writers that they are too quick to assume that anything they deem improper is a recent development (or "degeneration"); this is especially unforgivable in the age of computers and the Internet, when you can run a search through huge corpuses of English literature in a matter of minutes.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

RE: 2007: Year of the Tch?

Postby two_heads_talking » Wed 12.12.2007 12:25 pm

in my experience it seems the more people know about grammar, the less sense they make when they explain it. sometimes the "Cliff" syndrome takes over and everyone just sits there staring and saying, umm.. and... whatever.. lol. Like the math professor in a 3rd grade class explaining quantum physics. no one at that point even cares. :)

I blame it all on spell checker.. that wonderful thing that misses more than it fixes and has caused a rash of grammatical errors and misspellings in novels lately. it really jerks my chain when I find that stuff.
User avatar
two_heads_talking
 
Posts: 4137
Joined: Thu 04.06.2006 11:03 am
Native language: English

RE: 2007: Year of the Tch?

Postby Wakannai » Wed 12.12.2007 1:54 pm

A lot of novels now are written by speech-to-text software.
Wakannai
 
Posts: 658
Joined: Thu 10.18.2007 6:38 am

RE: 2007: Year of the Tch?

Postby Mike Cash » Thu 12.13.2007 8:59 am

Wakannai wrote:
A lot of novels now are written by speech-to-text software.


And a lot of them are published and sold rife with errors.
Never underestimate my capacity for pettiness.
User avatar
Mike Cash
 
Posts: 2737
Joined: Sun 08.20.2006 3:38 am
Native language: English

RE: 2007: Year of the Tch?

Postby Tspoonami » Fri 12.14.2007 7:25 pm

As for the fish/fishes thing, the difference between them, from the biology perspective, is that 'fish' means multiple fish of one species, whereas 'fishes' means multiple fishes of multiple species.

Or so I am told.
Sometimes I think that I'm afraid of thinking, and that scares me.
User avatar
Tspoonami
 
Posts: 837
Joined: Tue 08.22.2006 1:28 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General off topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

cron