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Do you + How many

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Do you + How many

Postby coco » Thu 03.13.2008 4:53 am

I'm trying to construct an interrogative sentence that asks someone an opinion or conjecture as an answer of the sentence.
The question is very simple.

1) What do you guess about question (2)?
2) How many students of the class could answer that question?

I try to make these two sentences be one sentence.
Here are my attempt.

a) How many students of the class do you guess could answer that question?

b) How many do you guess the students of the class could answer that question?

c) How many students of the class could answer that question, do you guess?

All of them seem to be incorrect. :?
Could you show me correct one, please?
Thank you.
----
edit : a opinion → an  :evil:
Last edited by coco on Fri 03.14.2008 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you + How many

Postby Sairana » Thu 03.13.2008 5:38 am

I would use A if it must be an interrogative.

However, I'd be more inclined toward the imperative, "Guess how many students in the class could answer that question."
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Re: Do you + How many

Postby Harisenbon » Thu 03.13.2008 5:41 am

Coco,

The phrase "do you guess" here sounds strange. It may be regional, but I think that people are more inclined to say "do you think" instead of "do you guess."

a) How many students of the class do you *think* could answer that question?

Would be right.

b) How many do you guess the students of the class could answer that question?

This is incorrect, and I can't image a way to fix it, other than in a)

c) How many students inthe class could answer that question, do you think?

This would also be correct, however we say "in" the class rather than "of".
However, it is not as straightforward as a) and so may seem strange to some people.

I still marvel at how your english has improved in the last 4 years.
I wish my Japanese had improved like that. ;)
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Re: Do you + How many

Postby Sairana » Thu 03.13.2008 5:48 am

I agree with Rich that "think" sounds better in these sentences than "guess".
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Re: Do you + How many

Postby Wakannai » Thu 03.13.2008 6:06 am

As others have said: Guess doesn't sound normal in those sentences.
2) How many students of the class could answer that question?


"Do you suppose" can be used in place of "do you think" it's not nearly as common though. Probably because it has a more formal feel.

But as also alluded to, we will often ask this kind of question in an imperative.
Guess how many students can answer that question?
Or just leave the sentence alone if context assumes that the answer is a guess.
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Re: Do you + How many

Postby coco » Thu 03.13.2008 7:22 am

"Thanks, Rich! "

Sairana-san, Harisenbon-san, Wakannai-san, thank you for your help. :)
Harisenbon wrote:The phrase "do you guess" here sounds strange. It may be regional, but I think that people are more inclined to say "do you think" instead of "do you guess."

Thank you for pointing it out. I didn't know that and it is good to know.

I still marvel at how your english has improved in the last 4 years.

4年前はおシメしてました。今はTJPの皆様のおかげでようやく「パンツマンになろう!」です。 :P
I wish my Japanese had improved like that. ;)

1級合格者が何をおっしゃいますやら。 :wink:

Wakannai wrote:As others have said: Guess doesn't sound normal in those sentences.
"Do you suppose" can be used in place of "do you think" it's not nearly as common though. Probably because it has a more formal feel.

After I had read Hari-san's post, I was wondering if I can use " Do you suppose /assume" or not. But now I see "do you think" is versatile for this kind of sentences.
But as also alluded to, we will often ask this kind of question in an imperative.
Guess how many students can answer that question?
Or just leave the sentence alone if context assumes that the answer is a guess.


Sairana wrote:I would use A if it must be an interrogative.
However, I'd be more inclined toward the imperative, "Guess how many students in the class could answer that question."

I see. In the conversation with familiar people, I'm going to use this "Guess how many...".

Again, thank you very much.
--
Sairana-san, do you mind if I ask your previous username on the TJP?
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Re: Do you + How many

Postby richvh » Thu 03.13.2008 10:20 am

I'd like to throw "would you guess" into the mix.

How many students would you guess could answer the question?


This seems to me to be a natural expression, and an alternative to the ones that Harisenbon gave.

Sairana wrote:I agree with Rich that "think" sounds better in these sentences than "guess".


Huh? As far as I know, Harisenbon's real name isn't Rich, and this is my first post in the thread. Plus, I'm suggesting a phrase where "guess" sounds better than "think."
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Re: Do you + How many

Postby Sairana » Thu 03.13.2008 3:54 pm

richvh wrote:
Sairana wrote:I agree with Rich that "think" sounds better in these sentences than "guess".


Huh? As far as I know, Harisenbon's real name isn't Rich, and this is my first post in the thread. Plus, I'm suggesting a phrase where "guess" sounds better than "think."


Gah, you got me.... sorry to the both of you, I'm embarrassed I made that mistake... I guess "Thanks, Rich" applies to this thread, too. :oops:

coco wrote:Sairana-san, do you mind if I ask your previous username on the TJP?


SaraLynne :D
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Re: Do you + How many

Postby coco » Fri 03.14.2008 2:42 am

richvh wrote:I'd like to throw "would you guess" into the mix.

How many students would you guess could answer the question?


This seems to me to be a natural expression, and an alternative to the ones that Harisenbon gave.


Thank you for your explanation, Rich-san. My interpretation is as follows,
do you guess --- strange/should avoid to use
would you guess ---natural
do you think ----common
do you suppose ----formal
Guess how many --- common

Is "would you think" still weird? Or more polite than "do you think" for this context ?

Sairana wrote:SaraLynne :D

Sairana-san, I didn't notice you are saraLynne-san. :) Thank you for helping me on this 英語の練習 forum. Using search function in this new forum by author's name, I see saraLynne-san posted 340 (on the old site, 357). I think we could recognize you by your avatar even if you use another user name. This moving tells me how an avatar works for our memory.

--
errors.
a opinion → an opinion
the TJP → TJP
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Re: Do you + How many

Postby Gundaetiapo » Fri 03.14.2008 1:05 pm

coco wrote:I'm trying to construct an interrogative sentence that asks someone an opinion or conjecture as an answer of the sentence.
Sairana wrote:However, I'd be more inclined toward the imperative, "Guess how many students in the class could answer that question."



I don't share your inclination, since that doesn't ask for an opinion or conjecture. The most common answer to imperative "Guess how many..." questions is to reflect the question right back.

A: Guess how many students in the class could answer that question.
B: How many?
A: (some number)!
B: Really?

This doesn't seem like what coco san is asking for.

richv wrote:I'd like to throw "would you guess" into the mix.


I'll throw in another: "would you say".

"How many students in the class could answer that question, would you say?"

I think the choice of which to use is more stylistic than anything else.

coco wrote:Is "would you think" still weird? Or more polite than "do you think" for this context ?


I'm curious, what do grammar books say about "would" vs "do"?
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Re: Do you + How many

Postby coco » Sat 03.15.2008 9:04 pm

Gundaetiapo-san, thank you for your explanation.
I'm curious, what do grammar books say about "would" vs "do"?

One book explains 10 different types of usage for "would".

01) 過去の習慣
02) 過去の強い意志
03) ていねいな表現 (依頼/勧誘/控えめな言い方)
04) 現在の意志
05) 現在の弱い意志
06) 非難・いらだち
07) 仮定法の条件節
08) 仮定法の帰結節 (単純未来/意志を表す)
09) 間接話法の被伝達部
10) 慣用表現

As reading these explanations, I feel like shouting a phrase which is seen on Wakannai-san's avatar.

"I totally don't understand! "
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Re: Do you + How many

Postby Wakannai » Sat 03.15.2008 10:01 pm

coco wrote:As reading these explanations, I feel like shouting a phrase which is seen on Wakannai-san's avatar.

"I totally don't understand! "


Especially without examples!!! This is why I hate grammar books. But I can't escape them no matter how I try.
I'll try to think up some example sentences for these usages and hopefully if the example is bad someone will chime in. There seems to be some overlap in mine and I'm not sure if that means my examples are bad, or if the Japanese is drawing a distinction that the English does not recognize.
The main thing "would" does is introduce an element of uncertainty if it isn't simply indicating tense.

01) 過去の習慣 > When fred mowed the lawn, he would start from the street and work his way towards the back.
02) 過去の強い意志 > I would have been a great teacher.
03) ていねいな表現 > Would you turn your music down so I can sleep? (Would you please...for more politeness)
04) 現在の意志 > 1. I would have your daughter's hand in marriage. 2.I would have the crown for mine own. (this usage is pretty formal or literary, at least for Americans).
05) 現在の弱い意志 > I would like a hamburger for lunch.
06) 非難・いらだち > What would you do? Eat the baby? (this usage almost always seems to be used in a negative question that is really a accusational question. It assumes the answer is yes, and the questioner expresses exactly how they feel about the matter in tone and body language. Because these questions are often followed by an absurdity,
07) 仮定法の条件節 > If you would give me some money, I will buy the drinks.
08) 仮定法の帰結節 > If the horse had slept better, it would have won the race.
09) 間接話法の被伝達部 > And the little engine would say, "I think I can, I think I can." as the hill grew steeper.
10) 慣用表現 > He would have his cake and eat it too. > we had a thread about this phrase a while back...

Hope that helps. Yay! Would. It is one of those English swiss army words. Don't mess with me or I'll beat you with a block of would.

Really, most of these "woulds" are tense issues and the definitions above muddy the water more than necessary. The speaker is imagining herself in the future speaking about the past.
Last edited by Wakannai on Sat 03.15.2008 11:21 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Do you + How many

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sat 03.15.2008 10:04 pm

coco wrote:Gundaetiapo-san, thank you for your explanation.
I'm curious, what do grammar books say about "would" vs "do"?

One book explains 10 different types of usage for "would".


Hmm, I wonder if I can come up with an example for each.

01) 過去の習慣
02) 過去の強い意志
03) ていねいな表現 (依頼/勧誘/控えめな言い方)
04) 現在の意志
05) 現在の弱い意志
06) 非難・いらだち
07) 仮定法の条件節
08) 仮定法の帰結節 (単純未来/意志を表す)
09) 間接話法の被伝達部
10) 慣用表現


01) When I was a kid, I would play in the backyard every day after school.
02) If I had known you were sleeping, I would have been more quiet.
03) Would you please open the door?
04) I would have a word with you, sir. [Slightly old-fashioned, but I think this is what they mean]
05)
06) Would you believe that!
07) If he would only study more, he could get better grades.
08) If he were faster, he would be able to join the track team.
09)
10) (Idioms, I guess?)

I'm not sure about the others.
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Would you ? usages

Postby coco » Sun 03.16.2008 4:40 am

Wakanai-san, Yudan-san, thank you for making example sentences.
Let me cite example sentences from the book. This book has more than 2 example sentences for each usage except 6).

01) 過去の習慣 > I would sometimes travel alone when I was a college student.
02) 過去の強い意志 > George would stick to his own theory.
03) ていねいな表現,依頼 >Would you please keep silent a minute?
03) ていねいな表現,勧誘 > Would you like to come with me?
03) ていねいな表現,控えめ > It would be difficult for us to accept your offer.
04) 現在の意志 > If you would wait a minute, I'll see if he's free.
05) 現在の弱い意志 >Who would believe your story?
06) 非難・いらだち > You would lose your glasses!
07) 仮定法の条件節 >You could if you would.
08) 仮定法の帰結節,単純未来 > If he had followed my advice, he would have saved face.
08) 仮定法の帰結節,意志を表す >I would have made you happy if you had married me.
09) 間接話法の被伝達部 > A little bird told me something wonderful would happen soon.
10) 慣用表現1> would like to: I'd like to send this parcel to Japan.
10) 慣用表現2> would you mind~ing: Would[Do] you mind my talking this seat?
10) 慣用表現3> would rather: I'd rather be burned alive than betray you.
----- (cited)----

How do you differentiate 02( as volition on the past) from 06 (as an expression of irritation)?
I'm guessing that "George would stick on his own theory(!)""Who would believe your story(!)"can be interpreted as 06.
As wakannai-san have said, tone, body language and context extend speaker's intention?

The speaker is imagining herself in the future speaking about the past.
02) 過去の強い意志 > I would have been a great teacher.

I think your example 02 is much better than my book at least for me if I understand yours correctly.
This usage looks convenient when speaker talks about her past. In this case, she says that once she had an intention/volition to become a great teacher. Is it right?
Past tense usages are understandable, even though I cannot use them properly. But in the "George" example, I can not find if it is past tense or not.

As for the original "would" usage in "would you guess" "would you say", I was wondering which category of them should be applied.(01/02/06/08/09 seem to be out of choices.)
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Re: Do you + How many

Postby Wakannai » Sun 03.16.2008 9:30 am

How do you differentiate 02( as volition on the past) from 06 (as an expression of irritation)?
02) 過去の強い意志 > George would stick to his own theory.
06) 非難・いらだち > You would lose your glasses!


Definitely a difference in tone and stress. 2 the entire sentence would be even in tone. 6's "would" would be stressed. The exclamation point at the end in writing clues me that at least one of the words is stressed in the written sample. "lose your glasses" gives me a context clue, since it essentially calls "you" irresponsible, and irresponsible people are generally looked down upon.

However, it's really just a tense issue. 2 is referring to the past (past tense of will). 6 projects into the future looking back. There is an understood, "If anyone would, you would...." This understood "If" projects into the future. If I went to the future, then the present would be my past. It is the expectation of the result that indicates the criticism.

You lost your glasses. > Statement of fact
You lost your glasses? > criticism if at least one word is stressed. The stressed word indicates that a word substitution is expected. You lost your glasses? > Teacher thinks they were deliberately left at home to avoid doing work at school. You lost your glasses. > Your reputation makes people believe you don't make such trivial mistakes, instead you reminded them you are human. You lost your glasses? You were holding your friends glasses, but instead of losing your friend's glasses as would be expected, you lost your own. You lost your glasses? Someone told the teacher that you lost your book report, she was misinformed.
You would lose your glasses! > Would here shows that the past result should have been expected based on previous examples. John doesn't just lose his glasses, he is constantly misplacing everything. Thus it's really just tense, but a bit more complex. Instead of just looking back, the speaker is looking back at how she should have looked forward in time based on her experience.

As for the original "would" usage in "would you guess" "would you say", I was wondering which category of them should be applied.(01/02/06/08/09 seem to be out of choices.)


This is tense and I think the reason it doesn't work. Would indicates past tense. Either real past or imaginary past where we assume a future perspective and the present is treated as history. We cannot speculate on our response to information we don't have. So we ask, "what do you think" (now) instead of "what would you guess" (future-past) Example: "What would you guess the following sentence meant if you knew German." Would you guess just does not work. "What do you think the following German sentence means?" works. Of course we can still use would in sense 3 to elicit a current response. Would you give me your best guess what the following German sentence means.
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