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JLPT 2 2008/2009

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Re: JLPT 2 2008

Postby Gundaetiapo » Thu 05.08.2008 8:54 pm

I like the syllabus you put together SS.

For studying, I'm mostly reading manga and working through the となりのトトロ anime. I'm thinking of trying the Always movie everyone speaks highly of next. I need to show significant improvement in vocabulary and listening before I can think about my test date though.
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Re: JLPT 2 2008

Postby ss » Fri 05.09.2008 3:21 am

Coco-san, thank you very much for the information.

>>> I need to show significant improvement in vocabulary and listening before I can think about my test date though.

You're not alone, Gunda. You don't know how desperate I am when dealing with vocabulary and listening.

Like most of you, I am too reading some Japanese story books and watching some J-dramas, hoping to gain some words stick in my little mind. I just want to say, though I didn't passed JLPT with flying colors, but the preparation for it really boosted my study, and I learnt loads, having passed the test definitely help me to embark in another challenging journey ahead. That's my passion for Japanese.

I figure that when working on the grammar points, I come across new words (vocabulary) introduced in some sentences. Maybe, we can try to construct our own sentences with those grammar points, to see if we are really understanding it well, and at the same time, we get corrections from the advanced learners here. And, at the same time, we highlight words in green as 2kyuu vocabulary (like what Coco-san did).

As regards what Txkun suggested, 3kyuu in blue, 2kyuu in green. I'm not disagreeing, but the example sentences given in the textbooks explaining that grammar points, seem more advance than 3kyuu grammar structures. (Arara, it occurs to me I have hard time expressing myself ....)

I agree with Katafei, it's a good idea to divide them among the participants, so we can create some exercises. Like, Aさん works on (Group1 ) 11 - 20, Bさん on 21 - 30, Cさん 31-40, so on .... , please give definition on the grammar points, together with some example sentences.
Anyway, I'm still working on no. 1 - 10 (Group 1) now. I left my memory stick at home, later tonight I will post some of them, if I can make it, if not I'll definitely do it during weekends.

I'm concerned about stressfulness. Having a chat session is supposed to reinforce, recap, whatever we've learned, “two heads are better than one” couldn’t be more true when it comes to study groups. Studying with others lets me work through problems, hear alternative arguments and view different perspectives. I don't feel stress at all to keep up with the chat with everyone. In fact, I missed everyone so much. Inevitably, we have different perception concerning chat session. I think, it's not necessary to have chat session at this moment.

*********
1.からといって
意味:Nevertheless, just because, not necessary, while it may be true that)
接続 動・い形・名形・名 の普通形+からといって

Examples:
イ. 一度や二度失敗したからといって、あきらめてはいけない。
Do not give up just because you have failed one or two times.

ロ. 当選(とうせん)したからといって、喜んではいられない。
There’s no need to be happy just because you were selected.

ハ. なるほど難しくそうに見えるからといって、それはできるさ。
It can be done, even though difficult it may seem.

ニ. 説明を聞いたからといってすぐにできるというものでもない。
It is not always you can understand things immediately just because you have heard of it. (??)

2.からには、からは
意味:Now that, since
接続 動・い形・名形・名 の普通形+からには

イ. 人を殴(なぐ)るからには、それなりの理由があったのでしょう。
Since you hit someone, there ought to be a reason in it. (should be a reason behind it.) ??

ロ. 彼がケーキを食べたいというからには、私はケーキの作り方を勉強しなければならない。
Since he wants to eat cake, I should learn how to bake cake.
(I have hard time expressing the nuance here, "Since he wants to eat cake, I should learn how to bake cake." is like "彼はケーキが食べたいから、私はケーキの作り方をならったほうがいい", からには seems not needed。)

3.おかげで、おかげた (thanks to, owing to)
科学技術(かがくぎじゅつ)が発達(はったつ)したおかげで、我々の生活は便利になった。
Thanks to the development of technology, our life/living became convenient.

4.せいだ、せいで、せいか
意味:the cause of , the reason, maybe because of
接続 動・い形・名形・名 の名詞修飾型+せいだ
慣用 気のせいか。。。。。

イ. 彼が風邪をひいたのは、さむさのせいだ。
He caught a cold because of the coldness.

ロ. 寒さのせいで、彼は風邪をひいた。
He caught a cold due to the coldness.

ハ. 彼は、よく休んだせいか、風邪が治った。
He has recovered from his flu maybe because he rest well. (he has enough rest)

ニ. 暑いせいか、食欲がない。
Maybe because of the warm weather, she has no appetite.

5.たところで
接続 動ーた形+ところ

イ. この薬を飲んだところで、風邪は治らない。
Even though I have taken this medicine, my flu has not recovered.

ロ. このご飯を食べたところで、おなかいっぱいにならない (??)
Even he has eaten this meal, he is still not full. (still hungry)

6.どころか
意味:in fact, more likely, on the contrary, what is even worse
接続 動・い形・名形・名 の普通形+どころか

イ. (when whether cast said that today is going to rain, but it turns out snowing)
雨どころか、雪が降っている。
Far from raining, on the contrary, it is snowing.

ロ. 1000円どころか、100円もない 
I thought I had 1000 yen, but actually I had only 100 yen. X
I thought I had 1000 yen, in actuality I didn't even have 100 yen

ハ. 彼は助けるどころか、またみんなを嘲笑しました。
Not only he was far from being helpful, he sneered at them instead.

How to phrase this sentence using "どころか" >>> I thought I understood, but actually I didn't get it.
理解したとおもたけど、実際は、分かってなかった。



------ to be continued
Last edited by ss on Mon 05.12.2008 8:13 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: JLPT 2 2008

Postby caroline » Fri 05.09.2008 3:44 pm

Alas, two different grammar books never follow the same order!
But I'm willing to try to tackle 11-20 if that's not what you are doing, SSさん、over the weekend.
Though my grammar is lacking -that's the least I can say - my main concern is the kanji gap between some 350 to around 1000... and is what I have been doing since last december, mostly.

As for the chat session, I agree that they allow, if thouroughly prepared, to review the grammar points. Those being somewhat more for 2kyuu than for 3 kyuu, it may be better to start earlier this year, especially for those who actually will pass the test.
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Re: JLPT 2 2008

Postby katafei » Fri 05.09.2008 6:02 pm

For 2 people who claim they will not take 2kyuu this year for lack of time, you sure take on large portions so soon!!! :wink:
I'm going to take it a little more slowly, but I will try to to 1-5 of the second group over the weekend. and have a closer look at your sentences, SS. (It's a bit too late now)

@Gundae: 'Always' is a great movie. I'm exchanging movies and reading material with two fellow students all the time. But even though the three of us have totally different tastes, we all enjoyed 'always' and we're looking forward to part 2 coming out on DVD.
Nowadays, for listening to Japanese, I'll choose tv-doramas rather than movies. There is so much more conversation in them. And often so much easier to understand, I don't know if that is necessarily a pre, but it's certainly good for your confidence ^_^

Today, I got 8 nihongo journals, and they really look very useful. I'm really getting into JLPT-mode again.
For whatever it's worth, because I do agree with Caroline it's not all that geared on actually using Japanese. I'm still mustering courage for that step.
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Re: JLPT 2 2008

Postby caroline » Fri 05.09.2008 6:17 pm

[quote][For 2 people who claim they will not take 2kyuu this year for lack of time, you sure take on large portions so soon!!!
/quote]
Very large weekend in France from Thursday to Monday included this week, that's why I have a little window of free time.... and came back on TJP after a whole month out. I'll try not to fall back in "offline" mode for too long afterwards, but my country is also the one where the present presidential motto is "work more to earn more", so...
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Re: JLPT 2 2008

Postby katafei » Fri 05.09.2008 6:51 pm

Yeah, I know, very large weekend over here (Holland) as well, but then, it's also summer ^_^

Anyway, I've just been thinking a bit. I don't think there's any need to rush through this list. Would it make more sense if we all spend some time on the first 10 items, each of us making some sentences, comparing, commenting....? that should keep us busy for at least a week. (Well, it will me)

So despite what I wrote earlier, I think that's one of the things I would like to spend my weekend on.

for now,
おはよう
こんにちは
おやすみなさい 皆さん。

PS
Actually, I did the silliest thing today: I spent 20 bucks on the JLPT vocab mp3 downloads
Talking about 'boring'.....
Anyway, it's an Apple programme, and I've got Windows, and even though you're supposed to be able to convert it, I haven't yet managed to do that.
Can you imagine: sleeping with your iPod on (Just kidding :mrgreen: )
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Re: JLPT 2 2008

Postby Gundaetiapo » Fri 05.09.2008 9:11 pm

I came across a couple of grammars in recent reading that might be worth study.

* までもない
Example:
それは言うまでもない。
That goes without saying.

* <verb stem>そうもない
Example:
勝利は得られそうもないが、不可能でもない。
A victory is unlikely but not impossible.
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Re: JLPT 2 2008

Postby Txkun » Sat 05.10.2008 3:37 am

Cocosan,
本当にお久しぶり Thank you very much for the news about JLPT.

Carolinesan, yesterday I put in the JapanShop basket the grammar books! Can't wait! :lol:

SSsan, interesting examples, I'll check if I find more information about these structures.
I think you are right about coloring since I looked better at all the grammar points you wrote and there is no real "overlap" with JLPT3.

But coloring can be useful to see easily the grammar points... maybe in a wiki?
I was thinking about how it would be useful to recap what we learn in a wiki.
I think this thread will become larger and larger and could be difficult to have all information at a glance.
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Re: JLPT 2 2008

Postby caroline » Sat 05.10.2008 5:15 am

Gundaetiapo wrote:I came across a couple of grammars in recent reading that might be worth study.

* までもない
Example:
それは言うまでもない。
That goes without saying.

* <verb stem>そうもない
Example:
勝利は得られそうもないが、不可能でもない。
A victory is unlikely but not impossible.


Well, according to my grammar book, you got 2 different things :

the first one is 1 kyuu (congrats!)

Vる+までもない  means more or less what you already know : しなくてもいい, no need to ....

the second one appears to be 3 kyuu : it's the negative form of the well known そうだ!

I could be all wrong, naturally.

and, Gunda  お誕生日おめでとうございます! :D

Katafei wrote :
I don't think there's any need to rush through this list. Would it make more sense if we all spend some time on the first 10 items, each of us making some sentences, comparing, commenting....? that should keep us busy for at least a week. (Well, it will me)

No problem : I'll just go on preparing the next 10 and post whenever it feels appropriate!

Txkunさん、I have no idea about wiki, as I'm a computer illiterate; but we have to keep interaction for comparing, commenting and so on. So we could have two different things for storage and discussion.
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Re: JLPT 2 2008

Postby katafei » Sat 05.10.2008 6:17 am

Well, these are my attempts with the first 5 grammar points.
Please feel free to comment!
I'm not really sure which kanji are JLPT2, but I coloured a few anyway

からと言って
Spoiler:
Verb plain form;
I-adj full form
Na-adj/Noun + だ~

猫だからといって、ネズミを食べるとはらない。
Just because it's a cat, doesn't necessarily mean she eats mice.
蒸し暑いからといって、宿題を休みはできない。
Just because it's (the weather) humid, doesn't mean you can take a break from homework

からには、からは
Spoiler:
Verb plain form
Noun +である

I find these many:
"Because A, B" possibilities confusing. The nuances are still very much beyond my reach.....
so I'm not too sure these are correct

XX (?!)医者であるからは、病人の世話にするは義務ですね.
Since you're a docter, it's your duty to take care of sick people.
XX (?!)日本え行くからには、日本語を勉強して、上手になるまで頑張りたい。
Since I'm going to Japan, I want to keep on studying Japanese until I'm good at it.

おかげで、おかげだ
Spoiler:
Verb plain form
I-adj full
Na-adj +だった
Noun + の
おかげで = mid sentence
おかげだ = end sentence

友達の手伝いのおかげで、あたらしいパソコンが取り付けている。
Thanks to the help of my friend, my new computer is now installed.
お祖母さんは85歳だが、もともと体が丈夫なおかげで、まだ富士山れます。
Even though grams is 85, she has always been healthy so she can still climb Mount Fuji.

せいで、せいだ、 せいか
Spoiler:
Verb plain form
I/Na-adj full (?)
Noun + の
せいで = mid sentence,
せいだ = end sentence

昨日の夕立ちのせいで、今朝は道が泥んこである
Due to last night's rain, this morning the road is muddy.
今朝道が泥んこであった、昨日の夕立ちのせいだ。
The road is muddy this morning, due to last night's rain.
XX (?!)昨日雨が降ったせいか、今朝は花が咲いている。
It's probably because it rained last night, that the flowers are blooming this morning.

たところ (When I did A, B happened)
Spoiler:
Verb たform

(I think I took a different grammar point here...^_^)
部屋を掃除したところ、絨緞の色が見えた。
じゅうたん
When I was cleaning my room, the colours of the rug became visible.
彼に新しい絵を見せたところ、ぜんぜん興味を示さなかった。
When I showed my boyfriend my new painting, he didnt show any interest at all.

quiz:
便利だ。。。。毎日タクシーにばかり乗っているわけはいかない。

a. ところで
b. がら
c. からといって
d. からには
Spoiler:
正答 c



@SS: What system of numbering are you using?

ニ. 説明を聞いたからといってすぐにできるというものでもない。
It is not always you can understand things immediately just because you have heard of it. (??)


Can you translate できる with 'understand'? I thought it would be more like:
Just because you've heard the explanation, doesn't mean you're able to do it straight away....??
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Re: JLPT 2 2008

Postby caroline » Sat 05.10.2008 9:48 am

Just some comments at ramdom : I'll look more closely when I have more time.

昨日雨が降ったせいか、今朝は花が咲いている。
It's probably because it rained last night, that the flowers are blooming this morning.


I would not use せいで as this implies adverse consequences, which I don't think appropriate for flowers blooming( but you may not like blossoming flowers, then it would be OK); せいか seems to imply that there are other factors that contributed to the adverse consequence...  for the flowers, it would be more the nuance of おかけで、

"Because A, B" possibilities confusing. The nuances are still very much beyond my reach.....
so I'm not too sure these are correct

からには is quite different in that something should follow, and be finished, what is before からには "naturally", as in
やるからには、最後までやってください。
Since you're doing it, please do it until it's finished.

Can you translate できる with 'understand'? I thought it would be more like:
Just because you've heard the explanation, doesn't mean you're able to do it straight away....??


I have the same doubt as katafei :
I would rather use 理解ができる for just "understand":
この説明が理解ができますか?
Can you understand this explanation?
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Re: JLPT 2 2008

Postby katafei » Sun 05.11.2008 1:32 pm

caroline wrote:
昨日雨が降ったせいか、今朝は花が咲いている。
It's probably because it rained last night, that the flowers are blooming this morning.


I would not use せいで as this implies adverse consequences, which I don't think appropriate for flowers blooming( but you may not like blossoming flowers, then it would be OK); せいか seems to imply that there are other factors that contributed to the adverse consequence...  for the flowers, it would be more the nuance of おかけで、

Caroline, you're probably right. I did choose this sentence on purpose, though, because in my book, the example sentence to go with 'せいか' was a positive one, as opposed to those with せいで and せいだ
よく寝たせいか、今朝は頭がすっきりしている。

I'll mark it as 'doubtful' in my earlier post ^_^

As for the からには, how about this one:

王妃であるからには、失礼してはいけない
She's the queen, so she cannot be impolite.

I wanted to make this sentence,
She's the queen, she represents the country, so she can't be impolite.
王妃であるからには、国に代表して、失礼してはいけない
But I was wondering if the 2 -te forms would be included in the はいけない?

どころか
Spoiler:
Verb: plain form
Adj.: full form
Noun

田中さんはいい上司どころか、独裁者のような人です
Tanakasan is not a good boss at all, he's more like a dictator.
(I'm beginning to wonder if I should put OOさん here 笑)

彼は病気だって、仕事するどころか、散歩するに力がありえない。
He's sick, he doesn't even have the strength to go for a walk, let alone to go to work.

ながら
Spoiler:
Verb: masu stem
Adj: full form
Noun

( I wonder when to add も and when not?)

彼は痛さながら、笑い付けていた。
Even though he's in pain, he keeps on laughing. (?)

タバコを吸うは健康に悪いだと知りながら、今までも吸っている。
Even though you know smoking is bad for your health, you are still smoking now!


As for ないうちに I ran into a nice one from 'Alice in Wonderland':

びんの中身を、半分も飲みないうちに、頭が天井につっかえるのがわかり、首の骨が折れないようにするために、首をまげなければなりませんでした。
Before she had drunk half the bottle, she found her head pressing againgst the ceiling, and had to stoop to save her neck from being broken.
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Re: JLPT 2 2008

Postby ss » Sun 05.11.2008 1:37 pm

Katafei wrote:
@SS: What system of numbering are you using?


So called the Iroha system, traditional ordering of the Japanese syllabary.
Like Chinese, sometimes we use 甲乙丙丁戊己庚辛壬癸 to replace Arabic numerals.

Reference Sengokudaimyo (click calendar and time) and Iroha-wikipedia

********
>>>> ニ. 説明を聞いたからといってすぐにできるというものでもない。
Katafei wrote:
Can you translate できる with 'understand'? I thought it would be more like:
Just because you've heard the explanation, doesn't mean you're able to do it straight away....??

Caroline wrote:
I have the same doubt as katafei :
I would rather use 理解ができる for just "understand":
この説明が理解ができますか?
Can you understand this explanation?


Seriously, I have no idea what it means. It is from one of the textbooks which has no English translation.

********
Belated greetings, happy birthday to you, Gunda! :P

********
Memo:
A) Katafei take care of G2, 1-5:
01.しかない
02.~にすぎない
03.~にほうかならない
04.~ずにはいられない
05.ないことはない、ないこともない

B) Caroline ---- G1, 11- 20
11.に関して、に関しては、に関しても、に関する、
12.に対して、に対し、に対しては、に対しても、に対する。
13.をめぐって、をめぐる
14.さえ…ば…
15.…も…ば…も… / …も…なら…も…
16.ように
17.わけではない、わけでもない
18.わけにはいかない、わけにもいかない
19.だけ、だけあって、だけに、だけの
20.ないことには…ない…

C) I still need times to finish up 7 to 10, sorry, pls give me few more days. :P
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Re: JLPT 2 2008

Postby katafei » Sun 05.11.2008 2:25 pm

O something went wrong here....
So I'm deleting my mail, I was trying to edit an earlier one.

anyway, SS, ゆっくり。Please don't get stressed out either ^_^
We have plenty of time.

Edit:
Iroha: of course!!
Edit 2:
1000円どころか、100円もない 
I thought I had 1000 yen, but actually I had only 100 yen.

Hmmmm...I would translate this sentence like this:
I don't even have 100 Yen, let alone 1000 Yen.
It's the ない that makes me think the speaker doesn't have 100 Yen either....?
Last edited by katafei on Sun 05.11.2008 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JLPT 2 2008

Postby ss » Sun 05.11.2008 2:38 pm

>>>> We have plenty of time.

懐かしい昔よもう一度。。。。 

>>> 1000円どころか、100円もない 
>>> I thought I had 1000 yen, but actually I had only 100 yen.
Hmmmm...I would translate this sentence like this:
I don't even have 100 Yen, let alone 1000 Yen.
It's the もない that makes me think the speaker doesn't have 100 Yen either....?


You're right, Katafei.
I got that wrong, I thought I was understanding it as "I thought I had 1000 yen, but I didn't even have 100 yen (right now)". Mind was not functioning well ....
Last edited by ss on Sun 05.11.2008 2:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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