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Multiple verbs?

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Multiple verbs?

Postby roomwithamoose » Thu 10.13.2005 5:27 pm

Hello,

I'm trying to figure out how you say a sentence with multiple verbs, for example, if I wanted to say, I think you should run, I know the two core parts would be:

Watashi wa omou.
Anata wa hashiru hou ii desu.

Another example could be I saw her when she was studying:

Watashi wa mita.
Kanojo wa doko benkyou shite itta.

How would one put these two sentances together? Also, if it is past progressive, would it be past tense of iru like I have? Thanks!
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RE: Multiple verbs?

Postby Gaijinian » Thu 10.13.2005 5:39 pm

(anata ha) hashitta hou ga ii to omoimasu.

--

Sono hito (better than "kare" or "kanojo") ha doko de benkyou site imasu ka?
Note that iru is a ru verb, and is ita in past-form.

---

Read it wrong...

I saw her where she was studying.
For translation purporses, let's use "when"
benkyou siteiru mama, (I put it that way because it was otherwise to difficult to determine the topic) sono hito wo mimashita.
tabun machigatteiru...
Last edited by Gaijinian on Thu 10.13.2005 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Multiple verbs?

Postby InsanityRanch » Thu 10.13.2005 6:27 pm

roomwithamoose wrote:
Hello,

I'm trying to figure out how you say a sentence with multiple verbs, for example, if I wanted to say, I think you should run, I know the two core parts would be:

Watashi wa omou.
Anata wa hashiru hou ii desu.

Another example could be I saw her when she was studying:

Watashi wa mita.
Kanojo wa doko benkyou shite itta.

How would one put these two sentances together? Also, if it is past progressive, would it be past tense of iru like I have? Thanks!


OK, two different sentence patterns here, but some things in common, too...

I think (...) becomes (...) to omou / omoimasu. Similarly, s.o. says (....) becomes (...) to iu / iimasu.

Now the (...) is subordinate, so as a rule, its subject will take ga rather than wa.

Anata ga hashitta hou ga ii to omou. (Ganjinian is right that expressing "should" in this way, you use the past tense before "hou ga ii".) You don't ned watashi in a "to omou" sentence, it is implied. If you want to add it for emphasis (to imply that this is what you think but not necessarily what others think) it would be (...) to watashi ha omou. Never to watashi ga omou. (Got corrected on that one once).

The second sentence follows a different pattern. Here, kanojo (or sono hito, but I'd use kanojo) is both the subject of the secondary sentence and the object of the primary. I think you could do it this way:

Watashi ha kanojo ga benkyou shiteiru no wo mita / mimashita. I saw her studying. This version takes the secondary clause (kanojo ga benkyou shiteiru), nounifies it with no, then makes it the object of miru. Also, notice that unlike in English you don't have to keep the verb tenses aligned (I SAW / she WAS studying). In Japanese usually only the last verb is in the past tense.

The problem with Gaijinian's version (and with several versions I tried out) is that it's impossible to tell who is studying, and my assumption, reading his sentence, would be that *I* was studying when I saw her.

I hope I haven't made any mistakes. If I have, someone please correct me?

HTH!

Shira
"Give me a fruitful error any time, full of seeds, bursting with its own corrections. You can keep your sterile truth for yourself." -- Vilfredo Pareto
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RE: Multiple verbs?

Postby roomwithamoose » Thu 10.13.2005 11:14 pm

Anata ga hashitta hou ga ii to omou. < correct!

I looked up the particle と and discovered this is in fact a proper and correct use of it. However, upon searching google for a while, I believe that this sentance, "Watashi ha kanojo ga benkyou shiteiru no wo mita." is the incorrect way to say this. I believe this is the correct way, can someone verify this please :D:

Watashi ha benkyou shiteiru kanojo wo mita/mimashita.
Translation: I saw the studying her.

In another post it was confirmed that to make a verb an adjective you may just put it before the noun it is modifying. Would it be better to use onna or is kanojo fine there?
Last edited by roomwithamoose on Thu 10.13.2005 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Multiple verbs?

Postby Kates » Fri 10.14.2005 5:01 pm

"Kanojo" can imply "girlfriend" so I would suggest using "onna (no ko)" instead. Unless it's already understood that you are talking about someone in particular. (IE: Did you see Sally today? / Yes, I saw her studying (in the library).)

Your sentence is good, I think. "Benkyou shiteiru" is used to modify "kanojo" so it should be in plain form, like you have. It was a past action (she WAS studying) but you are right to keep it 'shiteiru'--the past is already stated in "mimashita." I think you've got it right. ^_^
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RE: Multiple verbs?

Postby InsanityRanch » Sat 10.15.2005 8:28 am

Hey, RWAM, good job!

Both your sentence and mine are correct -- there is a slight difference in meaning.

benkyou shiteiru kanojo -- the studying her -- focuses on what she is like when she is studying. You would expect to see something about what the speaker observed about her -- a description of how she fiddles with her hair when she reads, for example.

kanojo ga benkyou shiteiru no wo miru -- focuses on the activity. It's a more closed sentence. I saw her. She was studying at the time. End of communication.

English "when she was studying" doesn't distinguish between these nuances, though of course, one CAN make the distinction in English.

As for pronouns and pronoun-like-objects. <sigh> As Kates points out, it is all a matter of context and very tough to get right for non-native speakers. You can't even talk about right and wrong without knowing the speaker, the listener, their relationships to the she in question, and whether the communication is formal or informal.

Shira
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RE: Multiple verbs?

Postby Gaijinian » Sat 10.15.2005 10:28 am

How about: SONO HITO GA BENKYOU SHITE IRU MAMA, ATTE KIMASHITA...?
Au and miru are surely similar in this sence, no?
Plus, it clears up the maening problem.B)

Note in my first translation, I said sono hito WO mimashita, so obviously I (the speaker) saw her!:o:p, so just suay:
sono hito WO benkyou siteiru mama, mimashita
Last edited by Gaijinian on Sat 10.15.2005 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Multiple verbs?

Postby AJBryant » Sat 10.15.2005 12:03 pm

SONO HITO GA BENKYOU SHITE IRU MAMA, ATTE KIMASHITA...?


Sorry, but to me that's... er.... gibberish.


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RE: Multiple verbs?

Postby InsanityRanch » Tue 10.18.2005 4:51 pm

On the issue of which "she" to use...

I happen to have come across the following two sentences in my reading recently. (The source is the second volume of "Shonen H" by Senou Kappa.) The examples are somewhat similar in form, in that each first identifies a woman and then goes on to say what she does. The first uses "kanojo", the second "ano hito".

「隣、何人おるんやろう?」と母親の敏子がいったとき、Hは彼女が何を考えているかすぐわかった。
"How many people are living in the next room?" his mother Toshiko asked, and H understood immediately what she (=kanojo) meant to do.

ある日、Hが学校から帰ってくると、門から出てくる小母さんに出会った。あの人は風呂敷包みを抱えていたから、何処を訪ねたかすぐにわかった。
One day when H was coming home from school, he met a lady coming out of the gate [of the war victim housing where his family was living]. She (ano hito) was carrying a bundle wrapped in cloth, and he immediately guessed her intention. (She had brought some Western clothing for H's father to repair, but had been unable to find the family's lodgings in the warren of victim housing rooms. H guides her to the right place.)

In both cases, the pronoun is there for clarity. If it was left off, as Japanese pronouns usually are (and as the "he" referring to H is in the second half of both examples), the reader would think for a few words that H was about to do something or was carrying the package. The difference in which "she" pronoun is used has nothing to do with grammar, since the grammar is about the same in both cases. Instead, the pronoun is determined by the relationship between a) the "she", b) the person (H) who is referring to her and c) the reader, who is the equivalent of the listener here.

I *think* that kanojo is used in the first case because Toshiko is familiar to both H and the reader, and kanojo is used about familiar people -- familiar to both speaker and listener. The second example uses ano hito, which is used about less familiar people. In fact, the old woman is a bit player, there only for this scene and mentioned briefly a bit further on.

Another example: In "Shall we Dance", when the wife is talking to the detective, she refers to her husband as "ano hito" -- I think as a distancing technique, to protect her husband, or herself, from the detective's speculation, which is beginning to feel like an intrusion.

Just some random thoughts that occurred as I was reading after reading this thread.

Shira
"Give me a fruitful error any time, full of seeds, bursting with its own corrections. You can keep your sterile truth for yourself." -- Vilfredo Pareto
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RE: Multiple verbs?

Postby roomwithamoose » Tue 10.18.2005 5:14 pm

Thanks for all the input InsanityRanch. I understand the whole pronoun thing now. However, I don't understand this sentance: kanojo ga benkyou shiteiru no wo miru. To me it looks like it means, she sees studying. Is it like this: (watashi wa) kanojo ga benkyou shiteiru no wo miru. If so, how would the listener know that watashi wa is supposed to be there? Thanks again so much :D.
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RE: Multiple verbs?

Postby InsanityRanch » Tue 10.18.2005 6:29 pm

roomwithamoose wrote:
Thanks for all the input InsanityRanch. I understand the whole pronoun thing now. However, I don't understand this sentance: kanojo ga benkyou shiteiru no wo miru. To me it looks like it means, she sees studying. Is it like this: (watashi wa) kanojo ga benkyou shiteiru no wo miru. If so, how would the listener know that watashi wa is supposed to be there? Thanks again so much :D.


I put "watashi ha" in parens because it might well be unnecessary, depending on context. Who sees? Well, if there's no one else around, it's assumed to be the speaker.

The trick in that sentence is the "no" (which could also be "koto") It turns a verb or a clause into a noun so that it can fit into a noun's place in a sentence.

(Watashi ha) hashiru no/koto ga suki da. I like to run. I like running.

In English we use either the infinitive (to run) or the gerund (running) to make run into a verb so it can be the object of like. In Japanese, the pattern has the thing-one-likes as the subject, followed by ga, but the same principle applies. It has to be a noun. So by putting no or koto after the verb, you turn it into a noun.

A clause can be treated in this way, too.

Kanojo ga benkyou shiteiru --> She is studying.

kanojo ga benkyou shiteiru no/koto --> the fact or situation that she is studying ...

(Watashi ha) kanojo ga benkyou shiteiru no/koto wo miru I see (the fact or situation that) she is studying. I see her studying.

This pattern is used ALL THE TIME in Japanese. Here's a reibun (an example sentence) from my dictionary that I copied onto a flashcard one time because it illustrates this pattern:

時間どおりに来たのはきみしかいない。
jidaidoorini kita no ha kimi shika inai.
The only one who came on time is you.

Take it apart:

(dareka ga) jidaidoorini kita ---> someone came on time
jidaidoorini kita no ha ---> The one(s) who came on time ...
jidaidorini kita no ha kimi shika inai ---> the one who came on time was only you. (We have to move that only to the front in English.)

One other thing. The tipoff to this pattern is that the no/koto comes after a terminal verb (or i-adjective) -- a word that could end a sentence.

HTH!

Shira
Last edited by InsanityRanch on Fri 10.28.2005 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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