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Kanji Sroke Order Book...

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Kanji Sroke Order Book...

Postby Batucada » Fri 05.23.2008 6:05 pm

Hi everyone,
This may have been covered before but I am looking for a book that lists the stroke order of all Kanji taught in Elementary to High school in sequence. The stroke order is the most important aspect. Is there such a book available?
Thanks,
B. :D
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Re: Kanji Sroke Order Book...

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Fri 05.23.2008 6:33 pm

There is no set sequence for the kanji other than the division into grades. I'm pretty sure there's some book like Essential Kanji or something like that that has stroke orders.

Why is it so important that they be in order? You can get lists of the elementary and high school kanji on the Internet.
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Re: Kanji Sroke Order Book...

Postby sushi4ever » Fri 05.23.2008 6:50 pm

do you want it for looking up kanji or is it to learn the correct writing?

because nearly all kanji learning books i've come across so far teach the stroke order along with the kanji itself.
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Re: Kanji Sroke Order Book...

Postby jimbreen » Fri 05.23.2008 7:05 pm

Batucada wrote:This may have been covered before but I am looking for a book that lists the stroke order of all Kanji taught in Elementary to High school in sequence. The stroke order is the most important aspect. Is there such a book available?


You mean the strokes in sequence? Or the kanji in sequence? Jack Halpern's "Kanji Learner's Dictionary (Kodansha) has all the stroke orders, and mentions the grades in which the first 1000 or so are taught in elementary school. There is no set teaching order for the rest.

The only book in English I have seen that presents the kanji in teaching order is "A Guide to Reading & Writing Japanese". I have the 1961 edition, but it was revised a few years back. It has stroke orders for the elementary school kanji, but not the rest.

HTH
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Re: Kanji Sroke Order Book...

Postby Batucada » Fri 05.23.2008 7:29 pm

I’ve started studying kanji using this http://japanese.about.com/library/blkodarchives.htm website, seemed logical at the time. Books are mobile and always available. I would just like to get the writing part of the 常用漢字 done with. As for grammar, I use Tae Kim’s: A Japanese guide to Japanese grammar: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/frames.html I use the internet because I cannot really afford to buy study materials etc. To be honest, I don’t know where to begin, I’m so confused; feels like i'm going nowhere regarding the study of Nihongo...
By the way Jim, thank you for your excellent Japanese learning resource. :D
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Re: Kanji Sroke Order Book...

Postby richvh » Fri 05.23.2008 7:34 pm

Well, if you're confused and don't know where to begin, what you want is a textbook, not a kanji book.

Check here for tips on choosing a textbook.
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Re: Kanji Sroke Order Book...

Postby Wakannai » Sat 05.24.2008 12:20 am

Besides, the Jouyou list is a bit dated. There are lots of common kanji not on the list, and lots of kanji on the list that are more rare.

After you get the Basic educational kanji down, it seems better to add kanji based on how they appear in your basic media of interest. Remember that the list is based on Newspaper usage, and it's a bit dated too. If you want to read fiction or Japanese websites, or anything other than newspapers, that list isn't all that useful.
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Re: Kanji Sroke Order Book...

Postby jimbreen » Sat 05.24.2008 3:35 am

Wakannai wrote:Besides, the Jouyou list is a bit dated. There are lots of common kanji not on the list, and lots of kanji on the list that are more rare.


Dated? yes. Lots of common kanji that are not on the list? - well not really. See below.

Wakannai wrote:After you get the Basic educational kanji down, it seems better to add kanji based on how they appear in your basic media of interest. Remember that the list is based on Newspaper usage, and it's a bit dated too. If you want to read fiction or Japanese websites, or anything other than newspapers, that list isn't all that useful.


Actually the 常用漢字 list is *very* useful almost all of the time. What's more it's being revised. Here is an article about the process and the interim outcomes:

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/national/news/ ... T00082.htm
Quoting:

> "▽常用漢字に盛り込まれることがほぼ確実な42字
> 藤、誰、俺、岡、阪、奈、鹿、熊、頃、韓、弥、斬、虎、狙、脇、尻、叩、闇、
> 籠、呂、亀、頬、膝、鶴、匂、嘘、須、噂、濡、笠、嬉、股、眉、朋、覗、鎌、
> 凄、撫、溜、謎、稽、曾"

In fact I was surprised that 誰, 岡, 阪, 亀, etc. weren't 常用漢字 already.

> "今回の検討案では、現在、ほとんど使われていない「銑」「錘」「勺」「斤」
> 「匁」「脹」の6字については外すとした。"

Amen. They should drop 朕 while they're at it, but I guess
it would be lese majeste.

Anyway, for now adding those 42 to your study list, and crossing off the 6 or 7 would be a good idea.
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Re: Kanji Sroke Order Book...

Postby Wakannai » Sat 05.24.2008 4:08 am

jimbreen wrote:
Actually the 常用漢字 list is *very* useful almost all of the time. What's more it's being revised. Here is an article about the process and the interim outcomes:

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/national/news/ ... T00082.htm
Quoting:

> "▽常用漢字に盛り込まれることがほぼ確実な42字
> 藤、誰、俺、岡、阪、奈、鹿、熊、頃、韓、弥、斬、虎、狙、脇、尻、叩、闇、
> 籠、呂、亀、頬、膝、鶴、匂、嘘、須、噂、濡、笠、嬉、股、眉、朋、覗、鎌、
> 凄、撫、溜、謎、稽、曾"

In fact I was surprised that 誰, 岡, 阪, 亀, etc. weren't 常用漢字 already.

> "今回の検討案では、現在、ほとんど使われていない「銑」「錘」「勺」「斤」
> 「匁」「脹」の6字については外すとした。"

Amen. They should drop 朕 while they're at it, but I guess
it would be lese majeste.

Anyway, for now adding those 42 to your study list, and crossing off the 6 or 7 would be a good idea.


Alright, I stand corrected. It's nice to see that they are revising the list. Maybe it's only my personal experience, but it seems sometimes that it is more common for me to look up a kanji that I see repeated and find out it's not on the list, than to find out it is. Well, not that bad, but it seems like a significant amount of the kanji I know aren't on the list. Unfortunately, I've already learned most of these 42 the hard way.

For what it's worth, my kanji knowledge is all over the board since I learn mostly based on experience. 虫 is a good example. Even though I know the mushi reading, I don't really consider it a "known" kanji because I never see it outside of my first grade kanji poster as a word component. Sure, it's a radical in many kanji I know, but words that use it don't seem to come up. So here I am, I know enough kanji that I don't count them anymore, although still a long ways to go, but I can can still look at the first and second grade posters and see kanji that I can't read.

So that is part of the reason I'm frustrated with the whole kanji list thing. And why my advice to learn the educational kanji is only half hearted. After all, we need some base kanji knowledge before digging into books, otherwise it's just an exercise in frustration, and 学習漢字 is as pretty good place to start.

The ideal, seems to require too much effort for teaching institutions to do for the moment, that would be personalized lists based on interest: Literature (by genre), manga, light novels, karate, Shinto, or whatever. However, with e-books becoming more and more popular, and since educational institutions are usually given unlimited access to a library of books. I do foresee a point it the future where a teacher can ask the class, "Why do you want to learn Japanese?" and if the student says, "So I can read Rampo!" She can nod kindly, type in a query, and print out a personalized kanji list for that student.

Thanks for the link to the article too.
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Re: Kanji Sroke Order Book...

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sat 05.24.2008 9:09 am

jimbreen wrote:
> "▽常用漢字に盛り込まれることがほぼ確実な42字
> 藤、誰、俺、岡、阪、奈、鹿、熊、頃、韓、弥、斬、虎、狙、脇、尻、叩、闇、
> 籠、呂、亀、頬、膝、鶴、匂、嘘、須、噂、濡、笠、嬉、股、眉、朋、覗、鎌、
> 凄、撫、溜、謎、稽、曾"


Those all seem like fair ones to add, although you could probably pick another 200 or 300 at that frequency level (and it looks like from the article they are considering an addition of 220).

I just think that by the time you get into the 1500+ range of kanji, what kanji appear in the material you are reading is much more important than what appears in the Jouyou List. Nobody is ever going to start from 1 and go to 1945 and stop; that's just not how the learning process works.

I'd actually be more interested to know if any changes will be made to the prefatory matter -- that was the major change from the Touyou List to the Jouyou List.

このうち、1500位以内の42字は新常用漢字に盛り込まれることが確実視されているが、「俺」については「公の場で使う言葉ではない」といった反対意見もあり、引き続き検討を行う。


It's stuff like this that sometimes works against the supposed aims of listing the kanji that people actually use.
Last edited by Yudan Taiteki on Sat 05.24.2008 9:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kanji Sroke Order Book...

Postby becki_kanou » Sat 05.24.2008 9:10 am

jimbreen wrote:Actually the 常用漢字 list is *very* useful almost all of the time. What's more it's being revised. Here is an article about the process and the interim outcomes:

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/national/news/ ... T00082.htm
Quoting:

> "▽常用漢字に盛り込まれることがほぼ確実な42字
> 藤、誰、俺、岡、阪、奈、鹿、熊、頃、韓、弥、斬、虎、狙、脇、尻、叩、闇、
> 籠、呂、亀、頬、膝、鶴、匂、嘘、須、噂、濡、笠、嬉、股、眉、朋、覗、鎌、
> 凄、撫、溜、謎、稽、曾"

In fact I was surprised that 誰, 岡, 阪, 亀, etc. weren't 常用漢字 already.


Very interesting! I'm actually more surprised about 藤. Sure, nobody talks about wisteria that much, but it seems like every other person you meet is a 佐藤 or 伊藤 or 遠藤 or 安藤 or 加藤 not to mention all the 藤原 and 藤井 and 藤田 etc.

"今回の検討案では、現在、ほとんど使われていない「銑」「錘」「勺」「斤」
「匁」「脹」の6字については外すとした。"


I've always had a soft spot for もんめ for some reason though, even if it is near useless.

Amen. They should drop 朕 while they're at it, but I guess it would be lese majeste.

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Re: Kanji Sroke Order Book...

Postby jimbreen » Sat 05.24.2008 11:58 pm

becki_kanou wrote: I'm actually more surprised about 藤. Sure, nobody talks about wisteria that much, but it seems like every other person you meet is a 佐藤 or 伊藤 or 遠藤 or 安藤 or 加藤 not to mention all the 藤原 and 藤井 and 藤田 etc.


Well, that's what the 人名用漢字 is for. 藤 has been on that forever.
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Re: Kanji Sroke Order Book...

Postby jimbreen » Sun 05.25.2008 12:03 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote: Nobody is ever going to start from 1 and go to 1945 and stop; that's just not how the learning process works.


Unless you are a Japanese 高校生. :?

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
I'd actually be more interested to know if any changes will be made to the prefatory matter -- that was the major change from the Touyou List to the Jouyou List.


That will be interesting to see. Have you read Nanette Gottlieb's "Kanji Politics"? It deals in depth with the issues around that. Basically a fightback by the conservatives in the educational establishment.
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Re: Kanji Sroke Order Book...

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sun 06.01.2008 12:53 pm

jimbreen wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:
I'd actually be more interested to know if any changes will be made to the prefatory matter -- that was the major change from the Touyou List to the Jouyou List.


That will be interesting to see. Have you read Nanette Gottlieb's "Kanji Politics"? It deals in depth with the issues around that. Basically a fightback by the conservatives in the educational establishment.


Professor Unger has mentioned that several times and I feel like I should read it at some point. It sounds very interesting.
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