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How easy is it to kanjify non-kanji text for learning?

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Re: How easy is it to kanjify non-kanji text for learning?

Postby yukamina » Fri 07.04.2008 2:49 pm

Sorry, I'm having a major brain lapse :/ When I was typing the romaji, I was thinking about whether or not the first tsu was voiced or not, and totally forgot the second tsu is always voiced. :oops: I will slowing step away form the keyboard now...
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Re: How easy is it to kanjify non-kanji text for learning?

Postby furrykef » Fri 07.04.2008 11:03 pm

This is the second time so far I've been given a sentence without a translation (although the first one was in jest anyway). I also explicitly said, "So, nobody has yet given me examples of (realistic) Japanese sentences with English translations that might be tricky for me to write correctly in kanji." Pay attention, guys. ;)

Anyway, that's a pretty darn long sentence, probably longer than most of the sentences I'd be kanjifying in this fashion. I don't like making flash cards out of long sentences, whether they're in Spanish or in Japanese.

But despite these things, here's my stab at it.

For reference, the original sentence was:

Jissai, watashi ga dono you ni gakushuu shita ka wo, shuuyaku shite kantan to iu to, bunpou nado ni sezu hitasura kyoumi no aru hon wo yomitsudzuketa to iu koto desu.

This is what the IME produces:

実際、私がどのように学習したかを、集約して簡単というと、文法などにせずひたすら興味のある本を読み続けたということです。

The IME originally wrote 在る for ある, but I assume that's only because I've typed "aru" that way a few times before, so if I hadn't, it'd surely have said ある.

"jissai" = 実際 = "in fact". Since it's separated from the rest of the sentence, this is a perfectly plausible meaning for this phrase.

"watashi" is obviously 私, "I".

"dono you" means "how", or literally "what way". It could also be written "どの様", but all the examples that WWWJDIC has use all kana, a strong suggestion that it's usually written that way.

"gakushuu" is either 学習 or 学修, both meaning "learning" or "studying". Both of my other dictionaries have only 学習, so this is probably the right one. (ENAMDICT says that "gakushuu" is also a name, but since it's being followed by "suru", that obviously isn't the case here.)

Of course, "suru" and therefore "shita" is always kana. Put this together with the previous word and we have "studied".

"shuuyaku" is 集約 and has a variety of meanings. I'll come back to the meaning when I understand more of the sentence.

"shite" is "suru" again.

"kantan" is a bit puzzling; I'll get back to it.

"いう" can be "言う", but I'll leave it as いう unless I know it's direct speech.

"bunpou" is 文法, "grammar/syntax". There's a homonym 分封 that doesn't fit the context, so I'll ignore it.

"nado" is "etc.", and can be written 等, but again I'll trust the IME for now.

"sezu" is "without" and has no kanji.

"hitasura" has a few meanings, but all are marked "usually kana".

The only entry for "kyoumi" that isn't a name is 興味, "interest". I'll assume this is the right one unless I find cause to assume otherwise.

"aru", as I mentioned before, is always kana.

"hon" is 本, "book", which makes sense because it's followed by a verb about reading.

"yomitsudzuketa" is 読む "to read" + 続ける, "to continue" + past tense.

"iu" has already been mentioned.

"koto" is usually kana.

Now I have to try to make sense of all this. This is a little difficult because an English translation has not been provided, and although I have a good grasp of the basic principles of Japanese grammar, my knowledge is still pretty limited.

Let's try to break it down. First, a gloss.

"In-fact, I [SUBJ] how [NI] studied [QUESTION] [OBJ], intensive(?) doing 'kantan' [QUOTE] say [QUOTE], grammar etc. [NI] without nothing-but(?) interest [POSS.] exist book [OBJ.] continue-to-study [QUOTE] say [NOMINALIZER] is."

This is going to be too hard for me to understand exactly. Hmm... now that I think about it, I think 'kantan' is a name. Isn't that the name of a book or something? It's probably 簡単, "simple", so 簡単という means "called Kantan"... the 'to' afterwards must be an 'and' in this case, not another quote marker... argh, this is too complicated. This is one reason why I wanted a translation. :P

But even so, I didn't have all that much trouble with the kanji, and it looks like the IME probably got the sentence right on the first try (not counting my change of 在る to ある). The only thing I'm really left wondering about is what difference if any there is between 学習 and 学修, and I could always ask.

So how did I do?

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Last edited by furrykef on Sat 07.05.2008 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How easy is it to kanjify non-kanji text for learning?

Postby becki_kanou » Sat 07.05.2008 12:24 am

実際、私がどのように学習したかを、集約して簡単というと、文法などにせずひたすら興味のある本を読み続けたということです。


That's pretty good. I don't think it's too hard to "kanjify" a sentence if you have a (correct) translation in your native language. You should also be sure that the example sentences come from a reliable source. This particular sentence has 2 errors.

It should be "Jissai, watashi ga dono you ni gakushuu shita ka wo shuuyaku shite kantan ni iu to bunpou nado ki ni sezu hitasura kyoumi no aru hon wo yomitsuduketa to iu koto desu.

The original sentence apparently came from this page.

The IME originally wrote 在る for ある, but I assume that's only because I've typed "aru" that way a few times before, so if I hadn't, it'd surely have said ある.

"jissai" = 実際 = "in fact". Since it's separated from the rest of the sentence, this is a perfectly plausible meaning for this phrase.

"watashi" is obviously 私, "I".

"dono you" means "how", or literally "what way". It could also be written "どの様", but all the examples that WWWJDIC has use all kana, a strong suggestion that it's usually written that way.

"gakushuu" is either 学習 or 学修, both meaning "learning" or "studying". Both of my other dictionaries have only 学習, so this is probably the right one. (ENAMDICT says that "gakushuu" is also a name, but since it's being followed by "suru", that obviously isn't the case here.)

Of course, "suru" and therefore "shita" is always kana. Put this together with the previous word and we have "studied".


Correct.

"shuuyaku" is 集約 and has a variety of meanings. I'll come back to the meaning when I understand more of the sentence.

"shite" is "suru" again.

"kantan" is a bit puzzling; I'll get back to it.

"いう" can be "言う", but I'll leave it as いう unless I know it's direct speech.

"bunpou" is 文法, "grammar/syntax". There's a homonym 分封 that doesn't fit the context, so I'll ignore it.

"nado" is "etc.", and can be written 等, but again I'll trust the IME for now.

"sezu" is "without" and has no kanji.

"hitasura" has a few meanings, but all are marked "usually kana".

The only entry for "kyoumi" that isn't a name is 興味, "interest". I'll assume this is the right one unless I find cause to assume otherwise.

"aru", as I mentioned before, is always kana.

"hon" is 本, "book", which makes sense because it's followed by a verb about reading.

"yomitsudzuketa" is 読む "to read" + 続ける, "to continue" + past tense.

"iu" has already been mentioned.

"koto" is usually kana.


For the most part correct. You've misinterpreted 集約 and 簡単 but more on that later.

Now I have to try to make sense of all this. This is a little difficult because an English translation has not been provided, and although I have a good grasp of the basic principles of Japanese grammar, my knowledge is still pretty limited.

Let's try to break it down. First, a gloss.

"In-fact, I [SUBJ] how [NI] studied [QUESTION] [OBJ], intensive(?) doing 'kantan' say , grammar etc. [NI] without nothing-but(?) interest [POSS.] exist book [OBJ.] continue-to-study QUOTE say [NOMINALIZER] is."


Ouch. I suppose there are some uses for glosses like this, but I always find them inelegant.

This is going to be too hard for me to understand exactly. Hmm... now that I think about it, I think 'kantan' is a name. Isn't that the name of a book or something? It's probably 簡単, "simple", so 簡単という means "called Kantan"... the 'to' afterwards must be an 'and' in this case, not another quote marker... argh, this is too complicated. This is one reason why I wanted a translation. :P



簡単is not a name. It's part of a set phrase 簡単に言うと which means "to put it simply". Also you unfortunately chose the incorrect meaning for 集約 as well. It should be sense 2 from WWWJDIC: summarize.

You seem to have done pretty well over all. If you're interested here is an English translation:

To summarize and put it simply,the way in which I actually studied was to just read books that I was interested in, without worrying about grammar or things like that.
そうだ、嬉しいんだ、生きる喜び!
例え胸の傷が痛んでも。
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Re: How easy is it to kanjify non-kanji text for learning?

Postby furrykef » Sat 07.05.2008 12:45 am

Yeah, if that had been written 'ni' instead of 'to', then I probably wouldn't have made the conclusion that "kantan" is a name.

Ouch. I suppose there are some uses for glosses like this, but I always find them inelegant.


Yeah, it was so I could try to parse the dang thing. It's safe to say I wouldn't have been able to even if it had been written correctly. I might have been able to if I had the translation to start with.

I can see that the sentence was actually rather different than what I thought it was getting at. Even so, it appears I chose the correct kanji, though, which is what we were talking about in this thread.

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Re: How easy is it to kanjify non-kanji text for learning?

Postby richvh » Sat 07.05.2008 12:53 am

becki_kanou wrote:
実際、私がどのように学習したかを、集約して簡単というと、文法などにせずひたすら興味のある本を読み続けたということです。


That's pretty good. I don't think it's too hard to "kanjify" a sentence if you have a (correct) translation in your native language. You should also be sure that the example sentences come from a reliable source. This particular sentence has 2 errors.

It should be "Jissai, watashi ga dono you ni gakushuu shita ka wo shuuyaku shite kantan ni iu to bunpou nado ki ni sezu hitasura kyoumi no aru hon wo yomitsuduketa to iu koto desu.


I had a feeling that there was a problem in the "shuuyaku shite kantan to iu" part but didn't know how to fix it.

Furrykef: Note that せず is a form of する, and is equivalent to しない (or, to be more precise, equivalent to しなくて.)
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Re: How easy is it to kanjify non-kanji text for learning?

Postby yukamina » Sat 07.05.2008 2:27 am

From this site actually, no translation. Sorry for the other mistakes, for some reason I suck at transcribing stuff.
http://www.ykhsk.net/honn.html
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Re: How easy is it to kanjify non-kanji text for learning?

Postby furrykef » Sat 07.05.2008 2:57 am

Yep, the kanji exactly matched what I typed, except for the errors, of course. I don't know if I could have correctly chosen 気 for "ki" if it had been in the sentence as it was given to me. I know I'd be able to if I already understood the sense that "ki" was being used in, though.

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Re: How easy is it to kanjify non-kanji text for learning?

Postby nukemarine » Mon 07.07.2008 7:01 am

Here in lies the irony: Those that do Heisig can begin learning Japanese with native level use of kanji, yet next to no training text exists (in English) that offers it up. "Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar" uses only JLPT 4 and 3 level kanji (as does Genki IIRC), while "Kanji.Odyssey.2001" uses only the 1100 kanji in it's level 1 and 2 books. Until we find a good resource, we're stuck with having to "kanjify" and "over-kanjify" sentences.

As is stated, with a few exceptions, you can pretty much "kanjify" words given a good English translation to refer. Go for, get the basic On yomi and Kun yomi training the sentence's will give. Hopefully, you're reading actual Japanese texts later on to train you when to use which kanji. Don't sweat the "what natives actually do" replies early on. You're playing catch up so that means being fast and loose with the rules using a Japanese-English dictionary (guess, natives don't use that either). Soon you'll go J-J and use actual Japanese sentences (not those gleamed from texts teaching foreigners), which will repair minor damage done early on.
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Re: How easy is it to kanjify non-kanji text for learning?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 07.07.2008 8:12 am

nukemarine wrote:Here in lies the irony: Those that do Heisig can begin learning Japanese with native level use of kanji, yet next to no training text exists (in English) that offers it up. "Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar" uses only JLPT 4 and 3 level kanji (as does Genki IIRC), while "Kanji.Odyssey.2001" uses only the 1100 kanji in it's level 1 and 2 books. Until we find a good resource, we're stuck with having to "kanjify" and "over-kanjify" sentences.


Jorden's "Reading Japanese" only covers 450 kanji, but it does not write anything in kana that an adult native speaker would not write in kana.
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Re: How easy is it to kanjify non-kanji text for learning?

Postby furrykef » Sat 07.12.2008 6:33 am

It looks like I'll have to do this with Japanese for Everyone, at least the earlier chapters. Kanji is used very sparsely in the opening chapters (I think only one kanji, 本, is introduced in chapter 1, and only a couple here and there for the next few chapters), but I think it uses, or at least approaches, standard usage by the end of the book. Hopefully it won't be a big deal.

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