Double Particles

[MFoogle]

Is it possible to use two of the same particles in the same sentence? Like for an example, I found this at WWWJDIC... 彼女は昔は日記を付けていたが今はつけていない (She used to keep a diary, but she no longer does). Is that correct? And what about the particles that have multiple meanings, like ni and de? あなたの為に側にいる。(For you, I'm right by your side), or 私は雲で翼で翔っていた。(I was flying in the clouds by means of my wings), or あの時からあの人から怖いです。(Since that time, because of that person, I'm afraid). I can't think of any more examples right now, but I think you get the point.

[becki_kanou]

Sure, you can use the same particle twice. However you can't use から as you did in your last example.

You might say something like: あの人のせいで怖くなった, but you can't just use noun + から to give an explanation.

[prikanonno]

You can't use 雲で for in the clouds. It's 雲の中を instead.
かける is a transitive verb that takes such objects as 空を.
And I haven't found 翔る in a progressive form in reality. It's rather a poetic word, (and It's commoner to use 飛んでいる instead) Like, 天馬・空を翔る、大空を翔る鷲（ワシ）のように.

[furrykef]

One common situation where a sentence may have two topics, and therefore two things marked with は, is when you use an adverb of time: 今日は、私は銀行に行きます。 "Today I'm going to the bank." (Of course, often "watashi wa" here would be omitted, but I'm making a point here. ) You can think of 今日 being a broad topic and 私 being a sub-topic, or, the way I think of it, I just think of 今日は as one way of using 今日 as an adverb at the start of a sentence.

- Kef

[two_heads_talking]

You can't use 雲で for in the clouds. It's 雲の中を instead.
かける is a transitive verb that takes such objects as 空を.
And I haven't found 翔る in a progressive form in reality. It's rather a poetic word, (and It's commoner to use 飛んでいる instead) Like, 天馬・空を翔る、大空を翔る鷲（ワシ）のように.

nitpick incoming... "commoner" cannot be used in that way either.. you should use "more common" nitpick over..

[Yudan Taiteki]

Both my dictionaries list "commoner" and "commonest" without note or comment.

[furrykef]

"Commoner" and "commonest" are indeed words, but they're rare in non-formal speech... much better to say "more/most common" most of the time.

- Kef

[two_heads_talking]

Both my dictionaries list "commoner" and "commonest" without note or comment.

the two dictionary definitions that I was taught, was that a commoner was someone of low social status.

Although upon looking it seems that the American Heritage Dictionary lists it as you stated. Although based on comments of the past, I am actually surprised you would advocate their usage that way.. Or at least wouldn't indicate that it would be highly unlikely to be used that way.

However, I still stand by my nitpick..

I did a bit of searching and found this page.. stating that both are ok.. but that commoner is a more caloquial reference while the most/more common is more formal (used in writing etc.)

but doing a hit on yahoo, I get....
Yahoo results:
commonest - about 98,000
most common - more than 6,000,000

[AJBryant]

This is why I always stress the importance of proscriptive dictionaries.

There are two types: ones that says how words are used (and often, MISused); the other, the proscriptive type, defines how words SHOULD be used. For example, a lot of people write "alright" when they SHOULD write "all right" -- a GOOD dictionary will uphold the correct usage. Likewise, a non-proscriptive dictionary will often list "nukyular" as an "alternate" (rather than "incorrect" pronunciation for "nuclear."

I avoid those types of dictionaries like the plague, as they allow and functionally encourage bad habits. I wouldn't want a dictionary to teach me bad Japanese, and will not tolerate one that lets me use non-standard English.


Tony

[Yudan Taiteki]

But why are commoner and commonest wrong? Just because there are alternate forms doesn't mean there has to be some authority to tell us which one to use, especially when both are perfectly comprehensible. "commonest" is certainly less frequent than "most common", but it still gets 1.5 million google hits, and 72 hits from mastertexts. Are there any usage guides or dictionaries that actually say these are wrong? What's the purpose of declaring one of them wrong, other than to create a shibboleth?

[furrykef]

I wouldn't say it's a question of right vs. wrong grammar so much as a question of natural-sounding and unnatural-sounding. "Commoner" in this sense does sound unnatural to me. I'd avoid it in normal speech and I'd advise others to avoid it, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's "wrong".

Anyway, aren't we way off topic by now? I'm also interested in cases where these "double particles" are common (and where they're not common), but I don't have enough knowledge to contribute much more than I already have.

- Kef

[jimbreen]

But why are commoner and commonest wrong?

They're not. The general rule in English is that for two-syllable words you can use either er/est or more/most. "Commoner" is a bit of a problem in that it's also a noun meaning an ordinary person (as opposed to a peer), something that has more relevance in BrE than AmE. Possibly for that reason it's never been, er, as common as "more common".
I'm quite comfortable with "commonest" and "most common".

Just because there are alternate forms doesn't mean there has to be some authority to tell us which one to use, especially when both are perfectly comprehensible. "commonest" is certainly less frequent than "most common", but it still gets 1.5 million google hits, and 72 hits from mastertexts. Are there any usage guides or dictionaries that actually say these are wrong? What's the purpose of declaring one of them wrong, other than to create a shibboleth?

The rules about er/est and more/most can be found in many grammar books. English being English, with no appointed authority controlling it, you can say what you like, just as you can eat your peas with a knife and pick your nose in public. I find it easiest to stick to the, er, common usage. I don't say "most cold" or "difficultest".

[Harisenbon]

"commonest" is certainly less frequent than "most common", but it still gets 1.5 million google hits, and 72 hits from mastertexts.

Just to play devil's advocate, I don't believe that the internet should be used as a source of grammatical correctness.

"What did you say" : Google: 1,080,000
"What you say" : Google : 20,200,000

A contrite example, but still.

[Yudan Taiteki]

Well, that's why I included the 72 mastertexts hits, which include the usual culprits Dickens, Hardy, Eliot, Thackeray, etc. I wouldn't rely on google hits alone for correctness, just for commonness. I can see the stylistic objection to using "commoner" because of the overlap with the noun (although that would never cause any confusion of meaning since the word classes are distinct), but I don't see the point in criticizing it in a message board post.

(For the record, I say "more common" and "most common")

[chikara]

Personally I use "more common" and "most common" but then I was learnt to speak proper

......
"What did you say" : Google: 1,080,000
"What you say" : Google : 20,200,000
........

"There are three types of lies; lies, damn lies and statistics" - Benjamin Disraeli

"What did you say about context?"
"What you say about context may be taken out of context."