Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - Double Particles

Double Particles

Have a Question about some Grammar point? Share it with the world!

Double Particles

Postby MFoogle » Tue 07.08.2008 12:02 am

Is it possible to use two of the same particles in the same sentence? Like for an example, I found this at WWWJDIC... 彼女は昔は日記を付けていたが今はつけていない (She used to keep a diary, but she no longer does). Is that correct? And what about the particles that have multiple meanings, like ni and de? あなたの為に側にいる。(For you, I'm right by your side), or 私は雲で翼で翔っていた。(I was flying in the clouds by means of my wings), or あの時からあの人から怖いです。(Since that time, because of that person, I'm afraid). I can't think of any more examples right now, but I think you get the point.
MFoogle
 
Posts: 369
Joined: Mon 04.10.2006 5:59 pm

Re: Double Particles

Postby becki_kanou » Tue 07.08.2008 1:28 am

Sure, you can use the same particle twice. However you can't use から as you did in your last example.

You might say something like: あの人のせいで怖くなった, but you can't just use noun + から to give an explanation.
そうだ、嬉しいんだ、生きる喜び!
例え胸の傷が痛んでも。
User avatar
becki_kanou
 
Posts: 3402
Joined: Sat 04.19.2008 10:09 pm
Location: Hyogo, Japan
Skype chat: yes_becki
Native language: U.S. English, 米語
Gender: Female

Re: Double Particles

Postby prikanonno » Tue 07.08.2008 5:40 am

You can't use 雲で for in the clouds. It's 雲の中を instead.
かける is a transitive verb that takes such objects as 空を.
And I haven't found 翔る in a progressive form in reality. It's rather a poetic word, (and It's commoner to use 飛んでいる instead) Like, 天馬・空を翔る、大空を翔る鷲(ワシ)のように.
prikanonno
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue 07.08.2008 5:20 am

Re: Double Particles

Postby furrykef » Tue 07.08.2008 11:00 am

One common situation where a sentence may have two topics, and therefore two things marked with は, is when you use an adverb of time: 今日は、私は銀行に行きます。 "Today I'm going to the bank." (Of course, often "watashi wa" here would be omitted, but I'm making a point here. ;)) You can think of 今日 being a broad topic and 私 being a sub-topic, or, the way I think of it, I just think of 今日は as one way of using 今日 as an adverb at the start of a sentence.

- Kef
Founder of Learning Languages Through Video Games.
Also see my lang-8 journal, where you can help me practice Japanese (and Spanish, and Italian!)
User avatar
furrykef
 
Posts: 1572
Joined: Thu 01.10.2008 9:20 pm
Native language: Eggo (ワッフル語の方言)
Gender: Male

Re: Double Particles

Postby two_heads_talking » Tue 07.08.2008 1:14 pm

prikanonno wrote:You can't use 雲で for in the clouds. It's 雲の中を instead.
かける is a transitive verb that takes such objects as 空を.
And I haven't found 翔る in a progressive form in reality. It's rather a poetic word, (and It's commoner to use 飛んでいる instead) Like, 天馬・空を翔る、大空を翔る鷲(ワシ)のように.



nitpick incoming... "commoner" cannot be used in that way either.. you should use "more common" nitpick over..
User avatar
two_heads_talking
 
Posts: 4137
Joined: Thu 04.06.2006 11:03 am
Native language: English

Re: Double Particles

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Tue 07.08.2008 1:17 pm

Both my dictionaries list "commoner" and "commonest" without note or comment.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: Double Particles

Postby furrykef » Tue 07.08.2008 1:49 pm

"Commoner" and "commonest" are indeed words, but they're rare in non-formal speech... much better to say "more/most common" most of the time.

- Kef
Founder of Learning Languages Through Video Games.
Also see my lang-8 journal, where you can help me practice Japanese (and Spanish, and Italian!)
User avatar
furrykef
 
Posts: 1572
Joined: Thu 01.10.2008 9:20 pm
Native language: Eggo (ワッフル語の方言)
Gender: Male

Re: Double Particles

Postby two_heads_talking » Tue 07.08.2008 2:48 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:Both my dictionaries list "commoner" and "commonest" without note or comment.



the two dictionary definitions that I was taught, was that a commoner was someone of low social status.

Although upon looking it seems that the American Heritage Dictionary lists it as you stated. Although based on comments of the past, I am actually surprised you would advocate their usage that way.. Or at least wouldn't indicate that it would be highly unlikely to be used that way.

However, I still stand by my nitpick..

I did a bit of searching and found this page.. stating that both are ok.. but that commoner is a more caloquial reference while the most/more common is more formal (used in writing etc.)

but doing a hit on yahoo, I get....
Yahoo results:
commonest - about 98,000
most common - more than 6,000,000
User avatar
two_heads_talking
 
Posts: 4137
Joined: Thu 04.06.2006 11:03 am
Native language: English

Re: Double Particles

Postby AJBryant » Tue 07.08.2008 8:15 pm

This is why I always stress the importance of proscriptive dictionaries.

There are two types: ones that says how words are used (and often, MISused); the other, the proscriptive type, defines how words SHOULD be used. For example, a lot of people write "alright" when they SHOULD write "all right" -- a GOOD dictionary will uphold the correct usage. Likewise, a non-proscriptive dictionary will often list "nukyular" as an "alternate" (rather than "incorrect" pronunciation for "nuclear."

I avoid those types of dictionaries like the plague, as they allow and functionally encourage bad habits. I wouldn't want a dictionary to teach me bad Japanese, and will not tolerate one that lets me use non-standard English.


Tony
User avatar
AJBryant
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5313
Joined: Sun 10.09.2005 11:29 am
Location: Indiana
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Re: Double Particles

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Tue 07.08.2008 8:43 pm

But why are commoner and commonest wrong? Just because there are alternate forms doesn't mean there has to be some authority to tell us which one to use, especially when both are perfectly comprehensible. "commonest" is certainly less frequent than "most common", but it still gets 1.5 million google hits, and 72 hits from mastertexts. Are there any usage guides or dictionaries that actually say these are wrong? What's the purpose of declaring one of them wrong, other than to create a shibboleth?
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: Double Particles

Postby furrykef » Tue 07.08.2008 10:22 pm

I wouldn't say it's a question of right vs. wrong grammar so much as a question of natural-sounding and unnatural-sounding. "Commoner" in this sense does sound unnatural to me. I'd avoid it in normal speech and I'd advise others to avoid it, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's "wrong".

Anyway, aren't we way off topic by now? I'm also interested in cases where these "double particles" are common (and where they're not common), but I don't have enough knowledge to contribute much more than I already have.

- Kef
Founder of Learning Languages Through Video Games.
Also see my lang-8 journal, where you can help me practice Japanese (and Spanish, and Italian!)
User avatar
furrykef
 
Posts: 1572
Joined: Thu 01.10.2008 9:20 pm
Native language: Eggo (ワッフル語の方言)
Gender: Male

Re: Double Particles

Postby jimbreen » Tue 07.08.2008 10:22 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:But why are commoner and commonest wrong?

They're not. The general rule in English is that for two-syllable words you can use either er/est or more/most. "Commoner" is a bit of a problem in that it's also a noun meaning an ordinary person (as opposed to a peer), something that has more relevance in BrE than AmE. Possibly for that reason it's never been, er, as common as "more common".
I'm quite comfortable with "commonest" and "most common".

Just because there are alternate forms doesn't mean there has to be some authority to tell us which one to use, especially when both are perfectly comprehensible. "commonest" is certainly less frequent than "most common", but it still gets 1.5 million google hits, and 72 hits from mastertexts. Are there any usage guides or dictionaries that actually say these are wrong? What's the purpose of declaring one of them wrong, other than to create a shibboleth?


The rules about er/est and more/most can be found in many grammar books. English being English, with no appointed authority controlling it, you can say what you like, just as you can eat your peas with a knife and pick your nose in public. I find it easiest to stick to the, er, common usage. I don't say "most cold" or "difficultest".
User avatar
jimbreen
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Tue 06.27.2006 2:09 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Double Particles

Postby Harisenbon » Tue 07.08.2008 10:30 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote: "commonest" is certainly less frequent than "most common", but it still gets 1.5 million google hits, and 72 hits from mastertexts.


Just to play devil's advocate, I don't believe that the internet should be used as a source of grammatical correctness.

"What did you say" : Google: 1,080,000
"What you say" : Google : 20,200,000

A contrite example, but still. ;)
Want to learn Japanese the right way? How about for free?
Ippatsu // Japanesetesting.com
User avatar
Harisenbon
 
Posts: 2964
Joined: Tue 06.14.2005 3:24 am
Location: Gifu, Japan
Native language: (poor) English

Re: Double Particles

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Tue 07.08.2008 10:53 pm

Well, that's why I included the 72 mastertexts hits, which include the usual culprits Dickens, Hardy, Eliot, Thackeray, etc. I wouldn't rely on google hits alone for correctness, just for commonness. I can see the stylistic objection to using "commoner" because of the overlap with the noun (although that would never cause any confusion of meaning since the word classes are distinct), but I don't see the point in criticizing it in a message board post.

(For the record, I say "more common" and "most common")
Last edited by Yudan Taiteki on Tue 07.08.2008 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: Double Particles

Postby chikara » Tue 07.08.2008 10:55 pm

Personally I use "more common" and "most common" but then I was learnt to speak proper :)

Harisenbon wrote:......
"What did you say" : Google: 1,080,000
"What you say" : Google : 20,200,000
........

"There are three types of lies; lies, damn lies and statistics" - Benjamin Disraeli

"What did you say about context?"
"What you say about context may be taken out of context." :P
Don't complain to me that people kick you when you're down. It's your own fault for lying there
User avatar
chikara
 
Posts: 3576
Joined: Tue 07.11.2006 10:48 pm
Location: Australia (SA)
Native language: English (Australian)
Gender: Male

Next

Return to Grammar Questions and Problems

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests