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Which one is hiranaga/katakana

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Re: Which one is hiranaga/katakana

Postby furrykef » Wed 07.09.2008 11:00 pm

becki_kanou wrote:Hmmm... I personally would not call that "being familiar with kanji" if you don't know how to use them and can't tell the Chinese version from the Japanese version.


But I can tell the Chinese version from the Japanese version. In fact, that's entirely my point -- they look like different kanji. There's no way to know they're the same kanji without, well, already knowing it one way or the other. Either somebody would have to tell you that the radicals are equivalent or you'd have to figure it out from context.
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Re: Which one is hiranaga/katakana

Postby becki_kanou » Wed 07.09.2008 11:06 pm

furrykef wrote:
becki_kanou wrote:Hmmm... I personally would not call that "being familiar with kanji" if you don't know how to use them and can't tell the Chinese version from the Japanese version.


But I can tell the Chinese version from the Japanese version. In fact, that's entirely my point -- they look like different kanji. There's no way to know they're the same kanji without, well, already knowing it one way or the other. Either somebody would have to tell you that the radicals are equivalent or you'd have to figure it out from context.


Right, but if you had a good knowledge of kanji and how they're actually used in natural Japanese (not in isolation) you would "already know it one way or the other" because you would be familiar with their use. That's why I think learning them in context is more useful.
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Re: Which one is hiranaga/katakana

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 07.09.2008 11:16 pm

In any case, I think Tony's point was just that it was possible to tell which one was Chinese from the way the 説 kanji was printed -- he wasn't necessarily saying it was beginner-level knowledge or that anybody should be able to do that.
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Re: Which one is hiranaga/katakana

Postby AJBryant » Thu 07.10.2008 12:37 am

Bingo. Thanks, Chris. :)


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Re: Which one is hiranaga/katakana

Postby Garappachi » Thu 07.10.2008 10:46 am

見慣れない旧漢字に興味を持った小生意気なガキの頃に「医者が學校へ向かう。」という、へんてこりんな文を祖父に見せて、大笑いされたのを思い出してしまいました。
さて、ここからが問題です。
なぜ、大笑いされたのでしょう?(もちろん、「医者が学校へ向かう。」は自然な文ですよ。)
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Re: Which one is hiranaga/katakana

Postby two_heads_talking » Thu 07.10.2008 11:04 am

furrykef wrote:Having learned to write 2,042 kanji, I'd say I'm well-acquainted with the kanji. I don't know terribly many words or readings yet, but writing, recognizing, and distinguishing the kanji is what RTK1 is all about. And it still wouldn't be obvious to me that they're the same kanji unless I were told that or, as happens here, if the Chinese version appeared in a word I already knew and it was obvious it was the same word.

- Kef


Personally, I think you are making it more difficult that it needs to be by even worrying about Hanzi(Chinese).. Besides where are you running into Chinese versions of Japanese? Because of all the time I spent in japan, I never had that problem. And while my kanji recognition is about a 5th grade level (what is that about 500-550 characters?) [i discount my military and religious recognition as it's usually not the standard anyways] I can still tell the difference between Chinese and japanese due mainly to the fact that there is no kana(hiragana or katakana in Chinese) and that's really the most obvious difference anyways.

Besides after reading all your responses, you have completely come full circle and I really don't know what you are trying to say.. In one paragraph you say it can't be done, then you say you can do it, then you say that you can only do it if you know it already, and finally you say it's hard unless you know both.. All those statements are true, but you seem to be backpedaling in some cases and flipflopping in other cases, depending on who is responding to you.. Oh and don't forget, Korean also uses Hanja and it looks alot like both and doesn't sound like either..
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Re: Which one is hiranaga/katakana

Postby Mystique » Thu 07.10.2008 3:37 pm

I think besides the stylistic aspect of the fonts, there is absolute no difference between 說 and 説. In handwriting, this word is written as 説 in traditional Chinese and Japanese.

You can try presenting them to any Japanese or Chinese natives and asking which one is which. I suspect their reaction would be, "Huh?"
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Re: Which one is hiranaga/katakana

Postby AJBryant » Thu 07.10.2008 7:30 pm

Well, given that, you have to rely on vocabulary.


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Re: Which one is hiranaga/katakana

Postby furrykef » Thu 07.10.2008 9:16 pm

Mystique wrote:I think besides the stylistic aspect of the fonts, there is absolute no difference between 說 and 説. In handwriting, this word is written as 説 in traditional Chinese and Japanese.


Ah, so you can type the character both ways. I thought that they were a Han unified glyph and so you can only get one or the other in a particular font (like how you can't get both 漢 and the traditional Chinese version of that character without changing fonts).

two_heads_talking wrote:Personally, I think you are making it more difficult that it needs to be by even worrying about Hanzi(Chinese).. Besides where are you running into Chinese versions of Japanese? Because of all the time I spent in japan, I never had that problem.


I've never run into Chinese versions of Japanese, but we were talking about how to distinguish Japanese and Chinese in a phrase that's only kanji. (Kana is obviously a dead giveaway that it's Japanese, of course, but in the picture that was posted, there are no kana.) I'm not actually worried about hanzi in my studies.

two_heads_talking wrote:Besides after reading all your responses, you have completely come full circle and I really don't know what you are trying to say.. In one paragraph you say it can't be done, then you say you can do it, then you say that you can only do it if you know it already, and finally you say it's hard unless you know both.. All those statements are true, but you seem to be backpedaling in some cases and flipflopping in other cases, depending on who is responding to you..


If you're reading my responses that way, I don't think you're reading them correctly. I'll freely admit to having wishy-washy flip-flopping points of view at times, but this isn't one of them. I have consistently said:

1. If you have studied the radical differences between the languages, obviously, you can tell which is which.
2. If you see the Chinese version used in a word you already know, and the word still makes sense, you can probably conclude they are the same kanji.
3. You can also tell they're the same kanji if someone (or something like a dictionary) flat out tells you they're the same kanji, obviously.
4. Otherwise, there is no way of knowing that they are the same kanji, because you cannot blindly assume that 說 and 説 are the same kanji. The key word here is "blindly": if you just jump to that conclusion, you're basically saying "oh, this looks like that other kanji except for one small difference, so they must be the same", which is exactly the sort of assumption that can get you in all sorts of trouble with kanji. (Compare 土 and 士, for example -- now that's a small detail!) In this case, you would be right, but only by chance.

And I don't think there's any argument over these points, because the other posters never said anything to the contrary. I was just trying to point out that there's no way for a neophyte to just tell they're the same kanji, and, again, that was beyond my ability even though I can distinguish 2042 kanji. I did say I can tell the two apart, and I believe I said that I could identify 説 as a kanji used in Japan, but I never said that I would be able to tell you that 説 is the Japanese version and 說 is the Chinese version of the same kanji, because I did not in fact know this until this thread appeared. Otherwise, for all I'd have known, 說 is a different kanji -- I can tell 'em apart, but I didn't know they're "the same".

See? No inconsistency at all.

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Re: Which one is hiranaga/katakana

Postby Ongakuka » Fri 07.18.2008 2:11 pm

I've never run into Chinese versions of Japanese, but we were talking about how to distinguish Japanese and Chinese in a phrase that's only kanji.


Have you ever been confronted with such a phrase that you were not able to distinguish as Japanese or Chinese? I can't really see the point this...
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Re: Which one is hiranaga/katakana

Postby furrykef » Sat 07.19.2008 4:50 am

*sigh* Forget it. Forget the whole thing. I don't even know why I'm posting in this thread.
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