Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - Help with this confusing book! :)

Help with this confusing book! :)

Have a textbook or grammar book that you find particularly helpful? What about a learning tip to share with others?

Help with this confusing book! :)

Postby Kumani » Thu 07.17.2008 12:04 pm

Hey sorry if it doesn't belong here. But I have this book called "Kanji ABC" and I admit it's a bit good, but when it comes to learning the meaning of the kanji, it gets complicated.

Let me show you an example from what I was reading yesterday:

下 sa(garu/geru), shita, kuda(saru), GE, KA

It's exactly written like that. I know that a kanji symbol can have various meanings and be put into a sentence and mean any of those things.

The thing is... do I memorize all of them? They're too many, are all of them helpful?

Thanks a lot.
User avatar
Kumani
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu 07.12.2007 9:20 pm

Re: Help with this confusing book! :)

Postby richvh » Thu 07.17.2008 12:16 pm

Rather than a kanji reference book, get a textbook, and learn kanji as you learn the words they're used in. It's a lot less confusing that way.
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

Re: Help with this confusing book! :)

Postby Kumani » Thu 07.17.2008 12:31 pm

I've seen you post this a lot. And instead of a human machine giving me the answers that I don't want, I want a real answer as for the question and help that I provided.

so thanks but no thanks.
User avatar
Kumani
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu 07.12.2007 9:20 pm

Re: Help with this confusing book! :)

Postby fielle » Thu 07.17.2008 1:55 pm

All of those things are important, as they are all pronunciations that occur in different words. They're not helpful, they're essential. However, you're going to run into problems learning the kanji on their own, because kanji need context. Whether the pronunciation is ge or ka (or sa or kuda or shita) depends on the word and the sentence, and sometimes it's even something different altogether (see 下手 for example).

You're going to get confused learning them on their own.

But I wouldn't memorize any of them, personally. I'd learn words and contexts for those words. If you're not going to do that, then yes, you need to memorize them all, and you'll still mess up as long as you don't know the words the kanji are used in.
User avatar
fielle
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu 02.28.2008 3:24 pm
Native language: English
Gender: Female

Re: Help with this confusing book! :)

Postby richvh » Thu 07.17.2008 1:57 pm

Whether it's the answer you want or not is irrelevant. It's the answer you need.

Shita, sagaru, sageru and kudasaru are all words. Ka and ge are merely parts of words. Until you can associate meanings to the words (and no, the base meaning of the kanji isn't sufficient) memorizing a bunch of readings really won't help - they won't stick in your memory that well. You need context to attach the kanji to.

Learn words, not kanji.
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

Re: Help with this confusing book! :)

Postby Sairana » Thu 07.17.2008 2:20 pm

Kumani wrote:They're too many

And instead of a human machine giving me the answers that I don't want, I want a real answer


What answers -do- you want?

"Oh, it's OK, just learn one reading and move on. It'll be FINE!"

That work for you? Do you really intend to just go through a kanji reference and memorize all the readings and possible meanings of each individual character? If so, then you didn't need to come here and ask anything. Just keep plugging away, do what you do best.

If you'd like to progress with Japanese, come back later and don't brush off the advice of people who know better than you do.
Sairana
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed 02.27.2008 11:54 pm
Native language: (US) English
Gender: Female

Re: Help with this confusing book! :)

Postby Kumani » Thu 07.17.2008 7:04 pm

richvh wrote:Whether it's the answer you want or not is irrelevant. It's the answer you need.

Shita, sagaru, sageru and kudasaru are all words. Ka and ge are merely parts of words. Until you can associate meanings to the words (and no, the base meaning of the kanji isn't sufficient) memorizing a bunch of readings really won't help - they won't stick in your memory that well. You need context to attach the kanji to.

Learn words, not kanji.


basically, you just gave me an answer.. could have done that before eh?

Anyway, just cuz it's something I might "need" doesn't mean anything. You learn your way, and I'll learn mine. There done...

Saierana, seems like you didn't read clearly hon, "what answer do I want?" why, for the question I asked of course! learn to read.

Fielle, thank you. That's just what I was looking for, I will try my best, thanks a lot dude. :mrgreen:
User avatar
Kumani
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu 07.12.2007 9:20 pm

Re: Help with this confusing book! :)

Postby richvh » Thu 07.17.2008 7:27 pm

Even if you manage to go through that entire book, and memorize all the readings for all the kanji (I'd bet you get bored and quit first) you're not going to be able to read a sentence of Japanese, because that book won't teach you any grammar. Japanese is not a language you can just look up every word in a dictionary and understand the sentence; you have to know how the particles modify the parts of the sentence, and how the way the verbs (and adjectives!) are conjugated change their meaning.

That's why getting and studying a textbook is better for you.
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

Re: Help with this confusing book! :)

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Thu 07.17.2008 7:58 pm

If someone asks "Should I cut off my finger at the first knuckle or the second knuckle?" the proper answer is "Don't cut off your finger," even though it's not one of the choices.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: Help with this confusing book! :)

Postby Wakannai » Fri 07.18.2008 12:14 am

Anyway, just cuz it's something I might "need" doesn't mean anything. You learn your way, and I'll learn mine. There done...


Wow, you come off as pretty arrogant there. If your way of learning is so great, why are you her asking us questions? Do you really want our help, or are you just here to whine about your problems and hope we will commiserate with you? Sorry, your problem is your method.

This is a learning forum, not a give you the answers you want to hear forum. You are stepping in common land mine that many new students step on, we are telling you to avoid it. If you insist on stepping on it again, that will only hurt you, no matter what crazy advice you get to the contrary.

Kanji books are for people that already know a large vocabulary and grammar. If you already know this then you can benefit from the kanji book. Since you don't, otherwise you wouldn't be confused, you should find a Japanese textbook that utilizes kanji and learn from it instead.

There's a reason we give this advice over and over. Because it works.

Fielle, thank you. That's just what I was looking for, I will try my best, thanks a lot dude.


And how exactly do you expect to benefit from Fielle's advice without following Rich's? Fielle gave you the same advice.
Wakannai
 
Posts: 658
Joined: Thu 10.18.2007 6:38 am

Re: Help with this confusing book! :)

Postby fielle » Fri 07.18.2008 9:02 am

Shh, Wakannai, don't spoil it! :wink:
User avatar
fielle
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu 02.28.2008 3:24 pm
Native language: English
Gender: Female

Re: Help with this confusing book! :)

Postby furrykef » Sat 07.19.2008 4:56 am

Kumani wrote:Anyway, just cuz it's something I might "need" doesn't mean anything. You learn your way, and I'll learn mine.


And if your way is stupid, I think we have an obligation to point it out and try to keep you from doing it.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I really hate seeing people shooting themselves in the foot that way. I know I've done it a lot. Sometimes it's better to learn things the hard way, but kanji aren't something to screw around with in that fashion. Learning kanji is easily the most demotivating task in studying the Japanese language if you do it wrong -- and you really are doing it wrong -- and you'll just get turned off from the language and never want to come back to it.

(Reading further into the thread, I see Yudan already said what I'm saying here, only more succinctly, but I'll keep this post anyway because the point really is that important.)

- Kef
Founder of Learning Languages Through Video Games.
Also see my lang-8 journal, where you can help me practice Japanese (and Spanish, and Italian!)
User avatar
furrykef
 
Posts: 1572
Joined: Thu 01.10.2008 9:20 pm
Native language: Eggo (ワッフル語の方言)
Gender: Male

Re: Help with this confusing book! :)

Postby Mike Cash » Sat 07.19.2008 7:44 am

Kumani wrote:
Let me show you an example from what I was reading yesterday:

下 sa(garu/geru), shita, kuda(saru), GE, KA

It's exactly written like that.


I've never even seen the book but I would bet grandpa's last clean colostomy bag that it has a helpful explanatory section in the very front that you totally ignored.
Never underestimate my capacity for pettiness.
User avatar
Mike Cash
 
Posts: 2737
Joined: Sun 08.20.2006 3:38 am
Native language: English

Re: Help with this confusing book! :)

Postby Wakannai » Sat 07.19.2008 2:00 pm

Bravo Mike.
Wakannai
 
Posts: 658
Joined: Thu 10.18.2007 6:38 am

Re: Help with this confusing book! :)

Postby hyperconjugated » Sat 07.19.2008 6:35 pm

Thanks for the mental picture ^_____^
Irgendwann fällt jede Mauer
User avatar
hyperconjugated
 
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri 05.06.2005 5:12 pm
Location: Finland
Native language: Finnish

Next

Return to Learning Materials Reviews & Language Learning tips

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 4 guests

cron