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はずですvsべき cache

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はずですvsべき cache

Postby coco » Thu 08.07.2008 11:56 pm

Here is the cache SS-san posted.

はずです vs べき
Last edited by coco on Fri 08.08.2008 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: はずですvsべき cache

Postby ss » Fri 08.08.2008 12:06 am

Marvelous!!!! Thank you very much. Image
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Re: はずですvsべき cache

Postby coco » Fri 08.08.2008 12:10 am

I think you might want to quote every post from the cache because cache may disappear.
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Re: はずですvsべき cache

Postby ss » Fri 08.08.2008 12:14 am

ありがとう!分かりました!Will do ...
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Re: はずですvsべき cache

Postby ss » Fri 08.08.2008 12:24 am

Original Post
by SS on Tue 08.05.2008 10:34 pm
I’m not really confident with the usage.
Both mean “supposed to be the case”

In Genki II page 142, it says that ---- はずです cannot be used in a situation in which you are “supposed” to do something because of duty, responsible, or law. And, we can turn はずです into past tense to describe something that was supposed to have been the case but actually turned out otherwise. In Tae Kim’s site, it explains --- 「べき」 has a much stronger tone and makes you sound like a know-it-all telling people what to do.

If someone were to report to her/his bosses with a case, which was supposed to be a very important call from a person, but didn’t receive the call at all.

昨日電話をもらうはずでしたが、電話がありませんでした。
昨日電話を受け取るべきで、しかし電話がありませんでした。 (Does this sentence grammatically correct?)
I was supposed to receive a call yesterday, but I did not.

(In the sense that, it might show some frustration there, but using べき will make one sounds bossy? Or totally inappropriate in that situation?)



Posted by Yudan Taiteki on Tue 08.05.2008 10:48 pm
はず is used for things that you suppose will happen, or things you suppose someone else will do. It cannot be used for your own actions, and as you said, cannot be used to indicate that someone must do something because of duty, etc.

べき is used in cases where the subject should do something, because of duty, law, good sense, etc. It's like a stronger version of ほうがいい, but it's not as strong as なければからない.

For instance:
あの薬を飲む前に、医者と相談する[べき/*はず]です。 (You should consult with the doctor before taking this medicine.)
来週までに咲く[はず/*べき]だ (The flowers should bloom by next week)
田中さんはすぐ来るはずだ。 (Tanaka should be here soon [i.e. because he said he would, because he's always here at this time, etc.])
田中さんはすぐ来るべきだ。 (Tanaka should be here soon [i.e. because he is required to be here soon])

You have to be careful in using べき directly to someone, because it can sound like you are scolding them. Even in cases where the person is required to be there by rules or law, you may still want to use はず when talking about a third person, especially if the person is above you in station. i.e. 先生が3時にいらっしゃるべきです is a little strange.
Last edited by Yudan Taiteki on Tue 08.05.2008 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Posted by becki_kanou on Tue 08.05.2008 10:50 pm
Hmmm.. English collapases these both into "should" or "supposed to" but the senses a re very different in Japanese.

As you said はず is not used for duty or obligation, only to describe a situation that you feel is almost certain to occur. It describes expectations and predictions.

On the other hand べき is used for strong statements of duty obligation or prohibiton similar to "must" in English.



Posted by clay on Tue 08.05.2008 11:28 pm

becki_kanou wrote:
On the other hand べき is used for strong statements of duty obligation or prohibiton similar to "must" in English.



べき should know. :lol:



Posted by SS on Wed 08.06.2008 6:33 pm

Becki san wrote:
Hmmm.. English collapases these both into "should" or "supposed to" but the senses are very different in Japanese.



Yudan san wrote:
You have to be careful in using べき directly to someone, because it can sound like you are scolding them.



あの薬を飲む前に、医者と相談するべきです。
田中さんはすぐ来るべきだ。

I really can't "sense" the differences. In what circumstances, would you use べき like that?
In English, even if we use "must", it doesn't necessarily carry a sense of exhibiting self-importance/boastfulness/scolding.
For example, Cassandra is my best friend, and I'm giving her a sincere advice like --- "You must listen to your mom this time, she is concerned about your future."


*** Probably too early now, mind is not fully working ... pardon me



Posted by richvh on Wed 08.06.2008 8:33 pm
Coco once told me in chat that べき is like a nagging mother. 息子、天気が寒くなって、セーターを着るべきだ。



Posted by SS on Wed 08.06.2008 9:09 pm
Thank you, Rich-san.
>>> 息子、天気が寒くなって、セーターを着るべきだ。
If these words are from a nagging mother, it is just going to show that the mother is really caring, it’s definitely warm-hearted.

I had a feeling it could have a mixture feeling of frustration, nagging, complaining. Like the situation I described earlier. Does it offensive?
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Re: はずですvsべき cache

Postby two_heads_talking » Fri 08.08.2008 3:08 pm

If you have access to a Japanese Seisho (Bible) (I can only vouche for the King James version translated from German to Japanese) the best way to see which is the most powerful is to check the 10 commandments.. I think 3 different versions of thou shalt/must are used..

I can't scan it up and can't find a link online to help out though.. /shrug.
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Re: はずですvsべき cache

Postby coco » Fri 08.08.2008 8:46 pm

Next time if you’re tuning in FM96.30, do let me know, I am in FM90.50, ya know. :evil:


昨日電話を受け取るべきで、しかし電話がありませんでした。 (Does this sentence grammatically correct?)

The answer in FM90.50 would be:
No, this sentence is not grammatically correct.

Do you want to tune in FM 82.5?
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Re: はずですvsべき cache

Postby ss » Sun 08.10.2008 3:03 am

**Thank you everyone for the helps, truly appreciated.


>>> 昨日電話を受け取るべきで、しかし電話がありませんでした。 (Does this sentence grammatically correct?)
The answer in FM90.50 would be:
No, this sentence is not grammatically correct.

Do you want to tune in FM 82.5?


OMG!!! Coco-san!!! Sorry for my late reply!!! I was very busy these two days!!

Coco-san, please erase those unpleasant words from your memory. I didn't mean to be rude, seriously, I was ..... ahh never mind, 今度だけは見のがしてください。 m(__)m <どうぞ許してください!!>


>>> Do you want to tune in FM 82.5?
Yesssssss, please teach. 親切にどうもありがとうございました。 <tears of joy!!>
Last edited by ss on Sun 08.10.2008 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: はずですvsべき cache

Postby coco » Sun 08.10.2008 8:57 am

それでは。

まず、「べき+過去形」の「べきでした」「べきであった/べきだった」、
そして否定の 「べきではありませんでした/べきではなった」について説明しましょう。

「べき+過去形」は、妥当であると判断される行為を行わなかったことを述べると同時に、その行為が行われなかったことに対する後悔あるいは不満・非難の感情を表すときに使います。
べき with past tense is used when someone ( included the speaker) didn't do an appropriate or adequate act. This implies feelings of speaker's regrets or criticisms/dissatisfaction for inaction.

「べき+否定+過去形(べきではなかった/べきではありませんでした)」は、妥当ではない行為が行われたとき、それに対する後悔あるいは不満・非難の感情を表します。
"べき+negative+past" is used when the speaker has feelings of regrets or criticism/dissatisfaction to someone who did do an inappropriate act.


以下の各文を英訳すると、どのような文章になりますか?

1) (私は)警察に真実をすべて話すべきでした (でも話しませんでした)。
2) あなたはその子を助けるべきでした(でも何もしませんでしたね)。
3) 若いうちに、外国語を勉強しておくべきだった( でも勉強しなかった)。
  *例文3)は『完全マスター2級(62P)』より引用
4) (僕は)部長にあんなことを言うべきではなかった(でも言っちゃった)。
5) 兄はあのとき会社を辞めるべきではありませんでした(でも辞めてしまった)。
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Re: はずですvsべき cache

Postby snmcrae » Sun 08.10.2008 10:49 am

In my mind, there are 2 very distinct English words/concepts that graft nicely onto はずです and べきです.

はずです = SURE
べきです = OUGHT

Like the difference between:
"I'm sure she will visit her mother in the hospital today."
AND
"She ought to visit her mother in the hospital today."

Although these two concepts can be subsumed under "should", it doesn't mean one cannot express them distinctly and clearly and simply in English, just as in Japanese.

"Ought" also very nicely expresses the senses of regret and dissatisfaction when used in the past tense that Coco was talking about, senses that "sure" could never have in English (and はずです could never have in Japanese):
"I ought to have visited my mother in the hospital yesterday, when I had the chance."
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Re: はずですvsべき cache

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sun 08.10.2008 11:05 am

snmcrae wrote:In my mind, there are 2 very distinct English words/concepts that graft nicely onto はずです and べきです.

はずです = SURE
べきです = OUGHT


I don't think "sure" always works.
二時間勉強したからできるはずだったけど、授業で駄目でした。
彼が確かに大学に入ったはずだけど、昨日本屋で働いてるのを見たんだ。
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Re: はずですvsべき cache

Postby ss » Sun 08.10.2008 11:06 am

ここさん、
やってみてもいいですか。

1) (私は)警察に真実をすべて話すべきでした (でも話しませんでした)。
I should have told the truth to the policemen (but I did not)
I must tell the truth to the policeman (but I have not)

2) あなたはその子を助けるべきでした(でも何もしませんでしたね)。
You should have helped that child (but nothing has been done)
You must help that child (but you have not done anything)

3) 若いうちに、外国語を勉強しておくべきだった( でも勉強しなかった)。
  *例文3)は『完全マスター2級(62P)』より引用
We/I should have studied a foreign language when we/I were/was younger (but we/I did not)
We must study a foreign language when we are young (but we have not)

4) (僕は)部長にあんなことを言うべきではなかった(でも言っちゃった)。
We shouldn’t have said such things to our manager (however it had been said)
We mustn’t say such things to our manager (but " '' '' )

5) 兄はあのとき会社を辞めるべきではありませんでした(でも辞めてしまった)。
My elder brother shouldn’t have resigned at that time (however he had left)
My elder brother mustn’t left the company that time (but he had left)


Sensing something there, yet still unable to determine (100%) what it might be.
Pardon me, so basically, using べき doesn't necessarily mean ........ I don't know how to describe it. It is giving me an impression that this word is not appropriate to use, and using はずです seems safer in a way.
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Re: はずですvsべき cache

Postby snmcrae » Sun 08.10.2008 12:13 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
snmcrae wrote:In my mind, there are 2 very distinct English words/concepts that graft nicely onto はずです and べきです.

はずです = SURE
べきです = OUGHT


I don't think "sure" always works.
二時間勉強したからできるはずだったけど、授業で駄目でした。
彼が確かに大学に入ったはずだけど、昨日本屋で働いてるのを見たんだ。


"Because I studied for two hours, I was sure I knew it. However I was useless in class."
"I'm sure that he has definitely started college, yet I did see him working at the bookstore yesterday."

Sure seems to fit well in both cases, for me at least.
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Re: はずですvsべき cache

Postby coco » Mon 08.11.2008 1:28 am

SS wrote:1) (私は)警察に真実をすべて話すべきでした (でも話しませんでした)。
I should have told the truth to the policemen (but I did not)

4) (僕は)部長にあんなことを言うべきではなかった(でも言っちゃった)。
We shouldn’t have said such things to our manager (however it had been said)

---
As you may have noticed, "Vす(る)べき+past" is used in the following situation.
「~するべき+過去形」は次のような状況下で使われます。

The subject of the sentence did not do V, despite the fact that:
1) S/he should have done V (s/he were supposed to do V).
2) S/he was capable to do V (at least, s/he could manage to do V), if s/he really wanted to have done V.

1)その行為を行うことが当然または妥当であると判断され
2)意志さえあれば、それを行うことができた
にもかかわらず、その人物は行為を行わなかった。

Therefore, in this case 意志動詞 (Volitional verbs) are placed before べき.This is a category of verbs that you can adjust your behaviors or actions, since those are based on your volition or intention.
(Whether you will do or not that act is a different thing.)
したがってこのような場合、「べきでした」の前に意志動詞が使われます。
意志動詞とは人間の意志によって行うことができる行為や動作を表すもので、動詞の分類のひとつです( 実際にその行為を行うかどうかは関係ありません)。

Let's get back to your sentences.
(I changed 受け取るべき into もらうべき to make the points more clear.)
昨日電話を もらうべきでしたが、電話がありませんでした。

1) Who was supposed to do the act?
2) Was the person able to manage to do something if s/he had wanted to?
3) If the act had actually been achieved, was it the person's volition?

When the speaker is the same person as the subject of the sentence ( who was supposed to do V and who should have done V ) , "Vす(る)べき+past" implies that s/he has regretted doing nothing.
もう一度確認しておきます。
話者が動作・行動の行為者と同一の場合、「~す(る)べき+過去形」は、話者自身が自らの無為を後悔・反省していることを意味します。
Last edited by coco on Mon 08.11.2008 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: はずですvsべき cache

Postby ss » Mon 08.11.2008 5:29 am

Thank you Coco-san for your detailed explanation, and correcting this sentence.
昨日、電話を もらうべきでしたが、電話がありませんでした。
I was supposed to receive a call yesterday, but I did not.
(implied> S/he should have called me yesterday, but s/he did not)

Here is the scenario:
1) The person who was supposed to call back was the head department of the 会計部 from ABC company.
2) This person (who was responsible in this matter) should, by right, return a call to XYZ company to clarify an important issue, but failed to do so.
3) Yes, s/he should have followed up this matter.

Supposing, I = chief department of 会計課 from XYZ company, and s/he was on the phone with the boss of ABC company, talking about that matter, would the above sentence still appropriate (rude/bash/awful ???)?


----
Corrections:
1) (私は)警察に真実をすべて話すべきでした (でも話しませんでした)。
I should have told the (complete) truth entirely to the policemen (but I did not)

2) (僕は)部長にあんなことを言うべきではなかった(でも言っちゃった)。
I shouldn’t have said such things to my manager (however it had been said)
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