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Checkup

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Re: Checkup

Postby coco » Fri 08.15.2008 1:28 pm

Hervae-san
There are some Portuguese speakers in this forum, and vkladchik-san says s/he is pretty good at Portuguese.

It might be better to post your original text written in Portuguese. At least, vkladchik-san can understand what you wanted to say.

I have a question.
Are those photos related to a Geisha- town? ( Or Geisha-like women are on the photos?)  
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Re: Checkup

Postby hevrae » Fri 08.15.2008 2:32 pm

vkladchik wrote:
皆さん、花町へようこそ。
少なくとも私の花町へのだ。いやはや、背景にあるその白黒の写真4枚は花町が出来る私の通訳なんだ。何としても、天(そら)が常に私の情熱の一つあった。芸者のように、人人の美さが、私に、いつでも触れてはならないものだ。花と花弁が女女しい優美さを表して、発する。
やっと、私の見地について、それがもっと西洋風の視力である花町あり、そうだな。
花の町を通行してから、世はとても楽しく見てゆくと思う。


皆さん、花町へようこそ。まぁ、少なくとも私の花町へ、ですね。さて[1]、背景に見える4枚の白黒写真は私が信じる花町の可能性を描いた「未来予想図」です[2]。空[3]は昔から私にとってインスピレーションの1つです。芸者[4]がとくにそうですが、人の美しさというものは私にとって常に触れていなければならない必要不可欠なものです[5]。 花、特に花びらは女のようなやさしい優美さを表します。最後に、私の観点はどちらかといえば、西洋的だと思いますが、皆さんもそう思いませんか。この「花の町」を通ることによって、皆さんが世の中全体をよりやさしい目で見るようになれば、それは私にとってなによりの幸せです。

[1] Are you going to be speaking this, or what?
[2] Due to the total lack of context, the phrase "what Hanamachi can be" is open to interpretation. This is mine.
[3] Unless you're trying to hint that you actually mean the Christian concept of heaven here, don't use 天 for そら.
[4] The inclusion of a geisha as an example is strange in this context (aside from being pretty hackneyed). If beauty is something you always need to be around (if I'm guessing what you're saying correctly), then are you always around geishas?
[5] The corresponding English sentence is a fragment, and the original Japanese makes no sense ("Like a geisha, people's beauty is something that must never touch me"?), so this erro is uncorrectable. Hence this wild guess.

If you're addressing people (either in a speech or in writing), especially people you don't know, use desu/masu forms. You can use the dictionary forms only if what you're writing is meant to be analytical/objective.

This is, the translation subforum, therefore I ask once more if people can help me solving this question of mine. If you can't help me, then, why bother posting? I don't need random flamings, thank you.


It's rude to ask people to correct something that you didn't even bother to proofread. English may not be your native language, but even native speakers of Portuguese can recognize that "Like geishas, people's beauty is always something Flowers and Petals reveal and emanete an effeminate elegance" has not been proofread. The "preview" button is there for a reason.

Lastly, if you think そうだな is a suitable translation for "don't you think?" (and this is only one of many head-scratchers in your text), you really need to go back and study your grammar books. My suggestion is reading the "Dictionary of Grammar" series by Seiichi Makino, starting with the basic one. (He's recently come out with an advanced one, which I wish I had had when I was studying Japanese.) When I say "read," I don't mean "refer to." I mean sit down and read them from start to finish. That's the best way to assimilate the grammar points.

/v


Everyone, welcome to Hanamachi.
At least to mine. Well, Those four photos in black and white in my background are my interpretation of what hanamachi can be. Anyhow, The sky has always been one of my passions. Like geishas, people's beauty is always something untouchable. Flowers and Petals reveal and emanete an effeminate elegance.Finally, about my point of view, this is a more occidental view of (what) hanamachi is, don't you think so?
After you've been through the street of flowers, you will see the world more pleseantly, I hope.
Recorrigi a dita falha, espero que agora já faça mais sentido.

Muito bem, dado que o teu português - como é anunciado - é bom, aproveitar-me-ei disso.
1 - Não, não vou; trata-se de uma descrição de um conjunto de quatro fotografias num ambiente extremamente familiar, daí que eu preferi ignorar o uso do desu e ~masu, apesar da minha ignorância poder parecer, não o é assim tanto, ok?
2 - Não é nada disso; é tão directo como está lá: "Pelo menos à minha (hanamachi)".
3 - Não, não estou a tentar vangloriar qualquer significado cristão - aquém de nem sequer acreditar nisso -, é apenas no âmbito de lhe dar um aspecto mais enfático, que, discordante ou não, eu quero mantê-lo.
4 - Como tão bem deves saber, ou já podias ter assimilado, estou a falar de quatro fotos; elas são o tema principal, ora pois não fiz referência fulcral com a partícula "ha".
5 - Evidentemente, não te fara mal nenhum olhares para a tentativa de transcrição ao invés de ires à pseudo tradução. Eu disse desde o início que isto era uma tentativa e que, logicamente, tinha um intuito inicial, que está abaixo; "A beleza das gueixas é algo intocável". Evidentemente, como deverás saber, pela história e pelo que elas representam, não te preciso justificar isto de forma alguma.

Deveras, esse atento à falha separação das frases foi mesmo algo que me passou aos olhos e não reparei.
Claramente fazes vários atentados à inteligência das pessoas - sem haver mal nenhum -, mas pronto. Sim, agora, olhando com alguma reflexão, vejo que soudana não é, portanto, o mais apropriado.

E obrigado, eu não tive aulas, tirando umas míseras dez aulas que cobriram nada - por culpa nenhuma, não tenho culpa que não ofereçam pacotes em todo o lado, ok? -, por isso, tem sido bastante autodidacta. Antes de continuares a dizer "a verdade" às pessoas, pensa só, mas só um bocadinho que o mundo não é só o que conheces :). E por favor, não levantes o dedo e fales de rudeza.

皆さん、花町へようこそ。まぁ、少なくとも私の花町へ、ですね。

さて、背景に見える4枚の白黒写真は私が信じる花町の可能性を描いた「未来予想図」です。-> Não percebo porque é que alteraste completamente o ambiente da frase, nem 未来予想図 em que intuito se aplica.

空は昔から私にとってインスピレーションの1つです。-> Evidentemente nem tentaste olhar para a tradução :S, queria dizer paixões e não inspirações, quanto eu sei, 情熱 é ambivalente e sustenta ambos.

芸者がとくにそうですが、人の美しさというものは私にとって常に触れていなければならない必要不可欠なものです。-> Dado que aqui não compreendeste, por falha minha, claro, o que queria dizer, pedia-te para reveres se 芸者のように、人人の美さが、私に、いつでも触れてはならないものだ é suficiente para transmitir o que queria.

花、特に花びらは女のようなやさしい優美さを表します。-> Acho que este enquadra-se exactamente na mesma situação em que a outra frase estava; peço-te para releres, neste novo contexto e ver se é valente: 花と花弁が女女しい優美さを表して、発する. Não percebo porque é que omites-te um dos verbos, nem porque referiste-te às petalas como algo entre outras.

最後に、私の観点はどちらかといえば、西洋的だと思いますが、皆さんもそう思いませんか。-> Hmmm, não há maneira de dizer que: se algo, é mais? Falta-me o 'mais'. Mas percebo-te agora.

この「花の町」を通ることによって、皆さんが世の中全体をよりやさしい目で見るようになれば、それは私にとってなによりの幸せです。Isto é mesmo por algo que eu nunca percebi, não percebo a parte do koto. Não sei porque é que não omitiste 皆さんが e não percebo o とって, não só neste caso, em todos, mesmo, não sei para que serve; não percebo o uso disto: それは私にとってなによりの幸せです。, eu só espero, isso não prefaz a minha felicidade.

Por fim, vejo que modificas-te mesmo muitas das expressões e adjectivos que tão simplesmente satisfaziam o que queria dizer, ora pois mudaste 女女しい por algo estupidamente maior. Terá a haver com o uso mais comum?


Obrigado.


coco wrote:Hervae-san
There are some Portuguese speakers in this forum, and vkladchik-san says s/he is pretty good at Portuguese.

It might be better to post your original text written in Portuguese. At least, vkladchik-san can understand what you wanted to say.

I have a question.
Are those photos related to a Geisha- town? ( Or Geisha-like women are on the photos?)  


Well, I repplied in portuguese, let's see if he can help me :).
No, they are not. Of course, as you know for sure, hanamachi is where geishas linger. With that thought in mind I mixed that into an more occidental version of four shots I took. It's very simple and nothing too much but has personal value. It has nothing to do with it, it's a more simple, minimalist and abstract - even though one might find direct - vision of it; http://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... chieh3.jpg this is it if you wish to see it. As you can see, it's very simple and as nothing to do, it's more like a very personal analogy.
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Re: Checkup

Postby coco » Fri 08.15.2008 9:08 pm

hevrae wrote: hanamachi is where geishas linger. With that thought in mind I mixed that into an more occidental version of four shots I took.


I think that if there were the explanation ( by Japanese) in your passage, it would make your Japanese text clearer. :)
もしこの説明があったなら、日本語の文章がもっと分かりやすかっただろうと思います。

Now, we can understand why 天(そら)が常に私の情熱の一つあった was placed there.

One thing I've noticed is that a poetic/abstract expression is hard to grasp.
( I've read your other posts.)

For example;
空は私の情熱です isn't grammatically incorrect. Actually some people like this kind of expressions, but as for me, it is still ambiguous.
空は私にとって情熱の象徴です is more understandable to me.
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Re: Checkup

Postby hevrae » Sat 08.16.2008 5:08 am

coco wrote:
hevrae wrote: hanamachi is where geishas linger. With that thought in mind I mixed that into an more occidental version of four shots I took.


I think that if there were the explanation ( by Japanese) in your passage, it would make your Japanese text clearer. :)
もしこの説明があったなら、日本語の文章がもっと分かりやすかっただろうと思います。

Now, we can understand why 天(そら)が常に私の情熱の一つあった was placed there.

One thing I've noticed is that a poetic/abstract expression is hard to grasp.
( I've read your other posts.)

For example;
空は私の情熱です isn't grammatically incorrect. Actually some people like this kind of expressions, but as for me, it is still ambiguous.
空は私にとって情熱の象徴です is more understandable to me.


Yes, I did correct that form, I missed that I had mixed two sentences in the supposed english translation.
I've changed 天(そら) into 天空, like I tried to say from the beginning, it's to give some emphasis. :).

Yes, my open writting leaves many, many endings and interpretations. In between the occidental languages - latin, normanic and so - this kind of translations aren't that hard to make - they are, but not that harder - but compared to asian languages, specially when you don't have much knowledge of the typical speach, it can be hard. The problem with my writting - which may not be such one - is that I tend to be extremely direct on translations then leave the rest for self interpretation, meh, sorry.

Oh, perhaps then you could explain me what I had asked in portuguese for vkladchik, I don't understand the strain にとって, nor it's usage nor anything :S.

Thank you :)
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Re: Checkup

Postby Harisenbon » Sat 08.16.2008 6:07 am

hevrae wrote:Oh, perhaps then you could explain me what I had asked in portuguese for vkladchik, I don't understand the strain にとって, nor it's usage nor anything :S.


I would be more interested in vkladchik's explanation about にとって, since he's been on since you took the time to write to him in Portuguese, but hasn't responded yet. I would hate to think that rewriting your questions for him was all in vain.
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Re: Checkup

Postby phreadom » Sat 08.16.2008 6:56 am

vkladchik wrote:
I'd like to see if it has any erros or anything that could be corrected or enhanced or any tips of course.


You can't even catch the "erros" in your English, and you want us to correct your Japanese? 甘いな。。。

My advice: go back to the kiddie pool. You're drowning in the deep end.

/v


I just wanted to make it perfectly clear that this kind of rudeness won't be tolerated around here.

A few people around here seem to think it's ok to be incredibly rude and condescending to people without stopping to consider if English might not be their first language, or that many people might be diving into something for the first time etc. Regardless of whether it's the 1st person or the 100th person that you've had to answer what seemed like a silly question for, you should be polite or you shouldn't say anything at all.

Personally this is precisely the kind of behavior (the incredibly impolite jab by vkladchik) that almost drove me completely away from this forum for over a year after I signed up. Thus I have a very strong aversion now to seeing it used on other people.

I notice that the other mods seem a little loathe to take a strong stand on this, possibly because they're guilty of the same behavior to some extent, so I am stepping up to say it very clearly: Do not be this rude again. If I see it, I will ban you. And that goes for everyone on these forums. This kind of childish verbal attack is, in my opinion, the single biggest problem on these forums and will be addressed as such.

Clear?

Now to be a little more positive and constructive about this, there is currently some discussion about adding a feature to display a user's native language in their user info on the right so that situations like this might possibly be avoided in the future. However, that does not excuse the behavior illustrated in this thread. First and foremost people need to learn some manners and have a little forethought before firing off rude and juvenile attacks at other users. We're all here to learn and when you attack someone else for a mistake that they might honestly not be able to help, or that was simply made because they hadn't yet learned to know any better, you make this a place hostile to learning. You make people afraid to ask questions. In doing these shortsighted things, you ruin the forum as a whole for everyone.

Mistakes are an integral part of learning.

Please think about this.

Thanks.
Last edited by phreadom on Sat 08.16.2008 8:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Checkup

Postby clay » Sat 08.16.2008 7:41 am

Echoing Phreadom, but in a much nicer way (including a smiley: :) ), let's try to be uplifting instead of condescending--especially with non-native speakers of English.

Unfortunately lately this board has gotten a reputation of being a little unfriendly. I'd like it to be welcoming to anyone who is serious about Japanese. Of course we do want to encourage good spelling and grammar, but let's do it in the nicest possible way.
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Re: Checkup

Postby hevrae » Sat 08.16.2008 8:19 am

Harisenbon wrote:
hevrae wrote:Oh, perhaps then you could explain me what I had asked in portuguese for vkladchik, I don't understand the strain にとって, nor it's usage nor anything :S.


I would be more interested in vkladchik's explanation about にとって, since he's been on since you took the time to write to him in Portuguese, but hasn't responded yet. I would hate to think that rewriting your questions for him was all in vain.

Yes, I asked him that too in portuguese. I'm not too woried if he or she will answer, after some study I understand most of what s/he wrote, though I don't understand why the change of so many expressions - not gramatically speaking.

I'd be happy if anyone would explain me that. I don't regret the time I took re-writting in portuguese, I guess that the fact I did it reveals many things :P
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Re: Checkup

Postby Mike Cash » Sat 08.16.2008 8:37 am

vkladchik wrote:
I see right now I'm going to have to move over and relinquish my status as Resident Cruel Bastard.


If it's cruel to tell people the truth, then call me Idi Amin.


Oh, don't misunderstand; I am thrilled to relinquish the title. You should see the crap I've caught around here for the last two years.
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Re: Checkup

Postby phreadom » Sat 08.16.2008 9:45 am

Mike Cash wrote:
vkladchik wrote:
I see right now I'm going to have to move over and relinquish my status as Resident Cruel Bastard.


If it's cruel to tell people the truth, then call me Idi Amin.


Oh, don't misunderstand; I am thrilled to relinquish the title. You should see the crap I've caught around here for the last two years.


Just so we're clear Mike, my message above applies to you too. You're not helping the situation by acting like this is just a joke.
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Re: Checkup

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sat 08.16.2008 10:53 am

Clear?


Actually no, because it seems that you have more in mind than just the criticizing of non-native speakers' English (which I agree is rude). What other behavior are you thinking of?
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Re: Checkup (~にとって/いやはや)

Postby coco » Sat 08.16.2008 12:03 pm

Regarding ~にとって, I think this page and Kgb4life-san's post ( 24 Jul 2008) of this page may help you.
I also hope vkladchik-san will kindly give us a detailed explanation.

Although I don't think you asked about いやはや in Portuguese,I am going to tell about it. 

いやはや is used when you are surprised or amazed at something that is beyond your expectation and it isn't a preferable situation to you. ( It is mostly used as a negative connotation.) Moreover, it is not a common interjection especially for young generation.
Therefore, I don't think いやはや is a suitable word in your context. 
As vkladchink-san said, さて is much better if you want to put an interjection.
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Re: Checkup

Postby phreadom » Sat 08.16.2008 12:14 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
Clear?


Actually no, because it seems that you have more in mind than just the criticizing of non-native speakers' English (which I agree is rude). What other behavior are you thinking of?


Sarcastic remarks about spelling, treating people like they're stupid if they make any mistakes, insulting people's intelligence if they say something like "minna-san" etc.

I don't think it's a stretch to expect that most of you know when you're being rude and when you're not.

I realize that it's in some people's nature to be spelling or grammar nazis, but you can correct someone without insulting them, if it's even absolutely necessary to correct them in a given context. Thus the reason for adding the "Native Language" profile entry to the new forum, which will show up in your user info to the right side of each post.

If a person doesn't speak English (or frankly even if they do, but aren't an expert) and is here to learn Japanese, they might not care as much to focus on their English to try to make it perfect for asking a question, as long as the meaning comes through. Contrary to what some people here might think, perfect English spelling skills or even grammar are not an absolute prerequisite for learning Japanese.

There are of course people who are intentionally lazy and refuse to do any research for themselves, even after the information sources are pointed out etc. In such cases sometimes a more stern response is appropriate. But insulting someone for making a spelling mistake, or asking a "newbie" question etc... that totally uncalled for.

If you can't respond without insulting someone, then don't respond. If you don't know what is insulting and what isn't... I'm sure it will be pointed out to you initially, after which if you continue, then I would consider a ban to make the point a little more clear.

For example, I have a friend who has a doctorate in analytical chemistry, but he cannot spell many words for the life of him. "your/you're" "there/their/they're" and many other words. He's certainly not stupid. When he's asking a question about a particular topic, it might be rather unimportant that he misspelled "their" in his question, and even so, he could be corrected without being called stupid, or told to get back in the kiddie pool, or to go back to school and learn how to spell etc.

The problem here is that many people, even those who are rather proficient in their English and Japanese, avoid these forums because of the perceived snobbish, rude, elitist and perfectionist attitude. People are afraid to learn, afraid to make even the slightest mistake etc. So they simply don't post or don't even read the forums at all.

We need to have a friendlier environment more conducive to people feeling comfortable asking questions, or trying out their new "skills" without fear of being ridiculed for any mistakes they might make. People absolutely are going to make mistakes. That's just a fact. We need to be more mature and patient in dealing with those mistakes.

The problem I saw in this thread was not only a person who was a non-native English speaker being ridiculed like a stupid child for making spelling mistakes, but having that rude comment followed up by a scant few light scoldings and even humorous encouragement for being so rude. This was absolutely a clear cut case of crossing the line. There should have been no doubt that this was wrong and there should have been no response short of saying so in no uncertain terms.

I'm sure others can give their opinions as well on what is or is not acceptable, but I think it should be pretty self evident for the most part.
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Re: Checkup

Postby AJBryant » Sat 08.16.2008 1:36 pm

I don't know, I believe that a warning for a ban is pretty much not a minor comment in passing.


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Re: Checkup

Postby Mike Cash » Sat 08.16.2008 4:54 pm

phreadom wrote:
Just so we're clear Mike, my message above applies to you too. You're not helping the situation by acting like this is just a joke.


Just so we're double clear: I'm not joking. I found the offending post as repugnant as anyone. Being blunt and straight-shooting is one thing. But taken to the gratuitously insulting level he did is just the online version of a nasty kid pulling the wings off of flies.
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