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Checkup

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Re: Checkup

Postby Mike Cash » Sat 08.16.2008 4:56 pm

phreadom wrote:
Just so we're clear Mike, my message above applies to you too. You're not helping the situation by acting like this is just a joke.


Just so we're double clear: I'm not joking. I found the offending post as repugnant as anyone. Being blunt and straight-shooting is one thing. But taken to the gratuitously insulting level he did is just the online version of a nasty kid pulling the wings off of flies.

How you took my post for "encouragement" of the guy is something I am unable to comprehend. Since I first ran across him here my private impression has been one of wishing this forum featured an Ignore List I could add him to.
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Re: Checkup

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sat 08.16.2008 5:11 pm

To phreadom: What I meant by my question is that often people who give somewhat blunt, but correct and helpful answers, are considered to be rude. For instance, I often tell people to get a textbook rather than trying whatever wacky strategy they're trying; I don't consider this rude, even though the person may not like to hear it, but others may disagree. I would not want this forum to turn into a place where we must be supportive of everything.
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Re: Checkup

Postby Hyperworm » Sat 08.16.2008 5:11 pm

Mike Cash wrote:wishing this forum featured an Ignore List I could add him to.
I haven't tried it myself, but click a username -> Add foe
I think it hides that user's posts from you.
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Re: Checkup

Postby phreadom » Sat 08.16.2008 5:56 pm

AJBryant wrote:I don't know, I believe that a warning for a ban is pretty much not a minor comment in passing.
Tony


I didn't see any ban warning. :( Fortunately, yours was the strongest comment against that rude post... but it wasn't a clear ban warning unless you did so privately.

I wanted to make it perfectly clear, for everyone to see, what the problem was with that behavior and what the consequences would be. No ambiguity.

It's extremely UN helpful that way.
Either lighten up and play nice, or find another kiddie pool.


I don't know if that's what you're referring to... but it's certainly not a clear ban warning.

Yudan Taiteki wrote:To phreadom: What I meant by my question is that often people who give somewhat blunt, but correct and helpful answers, are considered to be rude. For instance, I often tell people to get a textbook rather than trying whatever wacky strategy they're trying; I don't consider this rude, even though the person may not like to hear it, but others may disagree. I would not want this forum to turn into a place where we must be supportive of everything.


I don't see any problem with that. :) I agree.

And Mike, you said...
Mike Cash wrote:How you took my post for "encouragement" of the guy is something I am unable to comprehend. Since I first ran across him here my private impression has been one of wishing this forum featured an Ignore List I could add him to.


But when I look at your two comments:
Mike Cash wrote:I see right now I'm going to have to move over and relinquish my status as Resident Cruel Bastard.

and
Mike Cash wrote:
vkladchik wrote:
I see right now I'm going to have to move over and relinquish my status as Resident Cruel Bastard.

If it's cruel to tell people the truth, then call me Idi Amin.

Oh, don't misunderstand; I am thrilled to relinquish the title. You should see the crap I've caught around here for the last two years.


It just seems to come across like a joke that this person is a bigger bastard than you are. Like it's some prize belt. I don't see anything in there that says not to do it, or that it was a clearly bad thing etc.

Tony was the only person to rather clearly say it was a BAD thing and to not do it. (Although credit also goes to Chikara, whose sarcasm was actually well placed this time... ;) and to Harisenbon for backing up that point. Thanks.)

I wanted to avoid any uncertainty or ambiguity and make the point very clear so that it wasn't lost in the traffic or overlooked or misinterpreted etc.

Hopefully we've now done so. :)

(PS: And apologies to all for maybe being a bit heavy handed on this. I'm even less diplomatic than usual when I first wake up... :P and this was kind of a long standing pet peeve. I just wanted to get this point out loud and clear. This stuff will be covered in the guidelines on the new forum, but I felt it needed to be addressed here immediately.)

Thanks for your understanding. :mrgreen:
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Re: Checkup

Postby Mike Cash » Sat 08.16.2008 6:35 pm

Okey-dokey with me. It'll take me a while to wrap my head around the fact that I came off, as usual, looking like a bastard.....by being taken as insincere when I called somebody else a bastard. Feel like I feel into an Escher sketch.
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Re: Checkup

Postby phreadom » Sat 08.16.2008 6:59 pm

hahaha... sorry Mike. ;)
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Re: Checkup

Postby clay » Sat 08.16.2008 7:02 pm

Thanks Mike. You are certainly not a problem (I am thrilled you spend so much time here and greatly enjoy your have-to-think-or-else-google-it posts).

I've received several emails or PMs about the board having a touch of elitism. I don't like that word. :wink: Perhaps we (certainly myself included) responded to the many 'minna-san' or 'romanji' errors with more than a little sarcasm. Of course seeing the same mistake over and over again wears on anyone's sanity, but for someone new to Japanese both mistakes are understandable.

I share Yudan Taiteki's concern of the opposite situation happening--where quality is totally watered down. But there has to be some middle ground where mistakes are corrected in a nice way.

We are excited about the upgrade. Things will be sooooo much nicer then. I'm sure the site improvements such as having a native language indicator will help.
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Re: Checkup

Postby phreadom » Sat 08.16.2008 7:09 pm

Speaking of which, I added it on here as well. :)

Go ahead and click the "User Control Panel" link at the top of the page, then click on the "Profile" tab. Down at the bottom you should see the "Native language" box to fill in your native language. It will then show up over to the right like it does now for me. :D

(Go ahead and fill it out now, all of this will be transferred over to the new forum when we move!)

:mrgreen:
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Re: Checkup

Postby vkladchik » Sun 08.17.2008 12:31 pm

(Se você nota uma certa influência espanhola no meu português, é porque o espanhol é minha lingua materna, e só aprendi a falar o português leendo jornais online.)

[1] Are you going to be speaking this, or what?
1 - Não, não vou; trata-se de uma descrição de um conjunto de quatro fotografias num ambiente extremamente familiar, daí que eu preferi ignorar o uso do desu e ~masu, apesar da minha ignorância poder parecer, não o é assim tanto, ok?


Bom, se você quere pôr-se teimoso, bom, mas o que você escreveu soa um pouco estranho, porque você está usando a palavra “mina-san”, e a combinação “mina-san” + a forma familiar do verbo é um pouco discordante.

[2] Due to the total lack of context, the phrase "what Hanamachi can be" is open to interpretation. This is mine.
2 - Não é nada disso; é tão directo como está lá: "Pelo menos à minha (hanamachi)".


A “interpretação” que eu tive na mente tinha a ver com "que poderia ser Hanamachi (no futuro)". Em todo caso, agora parece que você quis dizer que "o que pode ser Hanamachi" queria dizer "uma manera de ver a cidade," e não no sentido do seu potencial.

[3] Unless you're trying to hint that you actually mean the Christian concept of heaven here, don't use 天 for そら.
3 - Não, não estou a tentar vangloriar qualquer significado cristão - aquém de nem sequer acreditar nisso -, é apenas no âmbito de lhe dar um aspecto mais enfático, que, discordante ou não, eu quero mantê-lo.


Não é nem discordante nem enfático. Só é estranho. Acredite-me. Não terá o efeito que quere.

[4] The inclusion of a geisha as an example is strange in this context (aside from being pretty hackneyed). If beauty is something you always need to be around (if I'm guessing what you're saying correctly), then are you always around geishas?
4 - Como tão bem deves saber, ou já podias ter assimilado, estou a falar de quatro fotos; elas são o tema principal, ora pois não fiz referência fulcral com a partícula "ha".


Mas porqué só tem explicacão de tres fotos?

1: 何としても、天(そら)が常に私の情熱の一つあった。

O céu.

2: 芸者のように、人人の美さが、私に、いつでも触れてはならないものだ。

As gueixas.

3: 花と花弁が女女しい優美さを表して、発する。

As flores.

[5] The corresponding English sentence is a fragment, and the original Japanese makes no sense ("Like a geisha, people's beauty is something that must never touch me"?), so this erro is uncorrectable. Hence this wild guess.
5 - Evidentemente, não te fara mal nenhum olhares para a tentativa de transcrição ao invés de ires à pseudo tradução. Eu disse desde o início que isto era uma tentativa e que, logicamente, tinha um intuito inicial, que está abaixo; "A beleza das gueixas é algo intocável". Evidentemente, como deverás saber, pela história e pelo que elas representam, não te preciso justificar isto de forma alguma.


Faltava suficiente contexto para compreender isso.

皆さん、花町へようこそ。まぁ、少なくとも私の花町へ、ですね。さて、背景に見える4枚の白黒写真は私が信じる花町の可能性を描いた「未来予想図」です。-> Não percebo porque é que alteraste completamente o ambiente da frase, nem 未来予想図 em que intuito se aplica.


Porque eu não tinha nem a menor idea do que você quis dizer com isto. Como eu disse antes, isto só é minha interpretação do que você poderia querer dizer com isto: いやはや、背景にあるその白黒の写真4枚は花町が出来る私の通訳なんだ。

"通訳"?!?

空は昔から私にとってインスピレーションの1つです。-> Evidentemente nem tentaste olhar para a tradução :S, queria dizer paixões e não inspirações, quanto eu sei, 情熱 é ambivalente e sustenta ambos.


O problema é que "paixão" não se pode traducir assim. É um problema lexical, uma falta muito fundamental de correspondencia entre as linguas.

芸者がとくにそうですが、人の美しさというものは私にとって常に触れていなければならない必要不可欠なものです。-> Dado que aqui não compreendeste, por falha minha, claro, o que queria dizer, pedia-te para reveres se 芸者のように、人人の美さが、私に、いつでも触れてはならないものだ é suficiente para transmitir o que queria.


Outra vez, o problema é mais grave do que você pensa. Não se pode dizer tão facilmente. Tem que dizer algo como:

芸者のような人間美は私にとって触れてはならないほどの尊いものです。

Pero, mesmo com isto, o sentido do que você quere dizer não se transmite muito bem. O lector japonês não poderá compreender.

花、特に花びらは女のようなやさしい優美さを表します。-> Acho que este enquadra-se exactamente na mesma situação em que a outra frase estava; peço-te para releres, neste novo contexto e ver se é valente: 花と花弁が女女しい優美さを表して、発する. Não percebo porque é que omites-te um dos verbos, nem porque referiste-te às petalas como algo entre outras.


Em primeiro lugar, 女々しい quere dizer débil, efeminado, em um sentido infeliz. Tanbém tem problemas com a gramatica.

... and I just realized that I didn't actually need to respond in Portuguese, since the point was for Hevrae to explain himself better. Aren't we excluding everyone else from the discussion by having our own private one in Portuguese?
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Re: Checkup

Postby vkladchik » Sun 08.17.2008 9:43 pm

coco wrote:空は私の情熱です isn't grammatically incorrect. Actually some people like this kind of expressions, but as for me, it is still ambiguous.
空は私にとって情熱の象徴です is more understandable to me.


I mentioned it in my reply, but I will elaborate here, in English. (Poor Hevrae's eyes are probably twirling in his head from trying to read my "Spantuguese.")

As I mentioned in another post, the highest hurdle the learner needs to jump is assimilating the lexical differences between English and Japanese. There are fewer words with anything like a one-to-one (or even close) correspondence between the two languages than words which simply have no single English equivalent. One example that comes to mind is ぬく・ぬける. The lexical scope of this very common pair extends from "to pluck" to "to pass" to "to escape." This poses a particular challenge for people who have learned a language which is similar or even related to their native language (e.g., Portuguese and English), and are used to thinking that there is some kind of universal lexical division of reality into a regular, familiar pattern. Japanese is proof that there isn't. Even kango show the same breadth of scope: 対応 means everything from "correspondence" to "handling" to "accommodation."

So, 情熱. Why is it unnatural to say 空は私の情熱の1つです? I'm not really sure. I learned Japanese by a brute-force method (read a grammar book -> read a dictionary -> read books), so I was deprived of the careful explanations textbooks might provide in this area. That said, 情熱 might be something like an uncountable noun in Japanese. Just like "one milk" requires a particular context in English, 1つの情熱 requires a specific context. The reason I chose インスピレーション is because this is the word I thought would convey the meaning (that I perceived) Hevrae intended. Note that this isn't even a Japanese word (well, it is, but that's a whole other can of worms), and that Coco-san's interpretation and rephrasing of Hevrae's sentence takes it even further from the intended meaning. Look at the sentence in English: "The sky has always been one of my passions." Coco-san's rendering is "The sky is a symbol of passion for me." I'm not in any way being critical of Coco-san here. Just the contrary--the poor guy's just trying to figure out what the sentence is supposed to mean, and I'm using this to show that, clearly, 空は私の情熱 does not communicate even closely the intended meaning.

So, インスピレーション. Since 情熱 clearly isn't going to do the job here, you have to look at what the intended meaning is. In English (and other western languages), something is "a passion" for someone when it excites them. "His passion is fine wines." "He has a passion for Italian cars." And so on. Working with that "excitement," and seeing that the context was an artistic pursuit (photography), I decided that the intended meaning here was that the sky is something that inspires Hevrae in some way to artistic expression. Hence, 空は昔から私のインスピレーション. There is obviously room for a thousand wiggles in all of this, and I'm not even a native speaker of Japanese, so, you know, there's that big grain of salt, but I don't think there's anything wrong with this translation.

And not to get involved in the personal mud-slinging that has infected this thread (probably my bad--I was having a bad week), but I don't think it's rude to say to someone who translates "interpretation" as 通訳 that maybe he should just trust me on this. I don't mean just me, either. Anyone with any level of mastery of Japanese shouldn't have to "defend" their translations. インスピレーション might not be the mot juste in this case, but even if that's the case, it isn't because the original didn't say "inspiration" (or inspiração).

So what's the take-away from all this? Just assume all lexical pairs (whether yamatokotoba, kango, or katakana eigo) are false friends. The field is mined, so you have to learn to tread very carefully.

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Re: Checkup

Postby vkladchik » Sun 08.17.2008 9:55 pm

hevrae wrote: Yes, I did correct that form, I missed that I had mixed two sentences in the supposed english translation. I've changed 天(そら) into 天空, like I tried to say from the beginning, it's to give some emphasis. :).


Again, though 天空 has its own unique resonances, which are indeed poetic, but still out of place here. It would kind of be like saying "The heavenly vault (o firmamento) has always been my passion." It loses the Christian ring (although ironically the English translation gains it) if you use 天空 (as opposed to 天(そら) which definitely does sound/look Christian), but it's still wrong. Why not just say 空? What's there to emphasize? If you want to add something to make the word stand out, call it 青空. Or you could say something like 空には色々な表情があって、その1つ1つの表情を眺めて、私は昔からインスピレーションを受けました.

Seriously, though. You can't just will a literal translation to have the meaning you want. Japanese is a very, very different language. Learn to play by its rules.
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Re: Checkup

Postby vkladchik » Sun 08.17.2008 10:09 pm

Harisenbon wrote:I would be more interested in vkladchik's explanation about にとって, since he's been on since you took the time to write to him in Portuguese, but hasn't responded yet. I would hate to think that rewriting your questions for him was all in vain.


Do you mean in それは私にとってなによりの幸せです or in 空は昔から私にとってインスピレーションの1つです? Come to think of it, I don't really suppose it matters, since they're the same.

にとって is probably one of the entries in one of Makino's books, but briefly stated, it's how you say "for me," in the sense of "my way of seeing it" and not in the sense of "for my benefit."

私にとって、日本の歴史は面白い。私にとって、かとうれいこは理想の女だ。etc.

Note that you can't change にとって to にとる as in

*私にとるかとうれいこは理想の女だ

the way you can change において into における.

日本において移民は大きな社会問題となっている→日本における移民は&c.

(Although also note that there is a slight change in nuance, too.)
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Re: Checkup

Postby vkladchik » Sun 08.17.2008 10:20 pm

hevrae wrote:if he or she will answer


I'm a he. Come to think of it, I don't know whether you're a he or she either... Maybe the people who run this place should add a "sex" thing to the profile. (Just kidding.) By the way, I'm guessing you're from Portugal and not Brazil. Am I right?

hevrae wrote:after some study I understand most of what s/he wrote, though I don't understand why the change of so many expressions - not gramatically speaking.


As I said, you just have to learn to think differently. Keep reading as much as you can in Japanese. It's not impossible for a gaijin to see the world through Japanese eyes (linguistically speaking, at least).
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Re: Checkup

Postby coco » Sun 08.17.2008 11:09 pm

I was wondering if the following kind of expressions make sense or not in Romance languages or English.

鳥は私の嫉妬
Birds are my jealousy. (?)
雲は私の苦悩
Clouds are my suffering. (?)
本は私の慈悲
Books are my mercy. (?)

Of course you can express your feelings with any kind of styles, but in my opinion, it is hard for listeners/readers to exactly understand what the speaker wants to tell ( without any additional explanation).

(I assume our skilled members tend to avoid helping J-pop translations because of the same reason.)
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Re: Checkup

Postby vkladchik » Mon 08.18.2008 12:31 am

coco wrote: 鳥は私の嫉妬
Birds are my jealousy. (?)
雲は私の苦悩
Clouds are my suffering. (?)
本は私の慈悲
Books are my mercy. (?)


Ordinarily you can't, but any of these phrases could make (poetic) sense in the right context. In fact, a phrase as seemingly nonsensical as "They Lion grow" can have immense poetic power in English. There's a sticky stating the importance of context in this forum. This is equally true for poetry.

Nonetheless, while these phrases could be poetic, "the sky is my passion" is a very ordinary, colloquial expression. It's almost like ~好き. "He has a passion for wine"=彼はワイン好きです。 It's not at all on the level of the potential "poetic-ness" of the examples you give. I'm glad you asked this question, though, because I think this might show Hevrae just how weird 空は私の情熱 sounds in Japanese.
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