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Checkup

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Re: Checkup

Postby vkladchik » Mon 08.18.2008 12:44 am

coco wrote:(I assume our skilled members tend to avoid helping J-pop translations because of the same reason.)


About this, I've seen some of those threads, and replied to one, but for better or for worse song lyrics are rarely more than image-carriers supporting the mood evoked by the music. "Jumpy happy fun-fun! Weee!" (=almost everything by モーむす, although I have to say that つんく must be one of the greatest pop-culture geniuses of the late 20th/early 21st century) or "poignant... tears...moving on..." (=almost everything by bands consisting of two girls) is what they basically distill down to. There are exceptions, though (which I listed), and I'd be glad to do a French-style "explication de texte" for some of those songs, if someone asks. Nobody has, though.
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Re: Checkup

Postby AJBryant » Mon 08.18.2008 2:47 am

vkladchik wrote:Maybe the people who run this place should add a "sex" thing to the profile.


I looked, and "yes, please," is not an acceptable option to check, so... :twisted:


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Re: Checkup

Postby vkladchik » Mon 08.18.2008 11:32 am

AJBryant wrote:I looked, and "yes, please," is not an acceptable option to check, so... :twisted:


Considering 99% of the people on this forum are guys anyway, I don't know if that's an option I'd want to click...
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Re: Checkup

Postby phreadom » Mon 08.18.2008 1:49 pm

Actually in my experience it's much more balanced than that. I think you're just assuming that everyone is male.

It might be something like 70%/30%, but I guarantee you that it's not 99% male.

But in all seriousness, "Gender" is an option I could add to the profiles, just like the "Native language" option.

I just wonder if it's really necessary? :) (I notice you said you were joking about the suggestion.)
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Re: Checkup

Postby vkladchik » Mon 08.18.2008 4:22 pm

phreadom wrote:Actually in my experience it's much more balanced than that. I think you're just assuming that everyone is male.


Well, everyone except the one person I know isn't male, because someone made a sukebe oyaji comment to her. 70/30 is a pretty good balance, actually. Is that of regular contributors, or just overall registered users?

But in all seriousness, "Gender" is an option I could add to the profiles, just like the "Native language" option.


I was kidding, because I don't think it would add much to the discussions. Our sex isn't really any more relevant than our zodiac signs are. On the other hand, it wouldn't hurt to know.

By the way, I couldn't help but notice you changed "sex" to "gender." Isn't "sex" still the norm?
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Re: Checkup

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 08.18.2008 4:28 pm

vkladchik wrote:By the way, I couldn't help but notice you changed "sex" to "gender." Isn't "sex" still the norm?


Either is fine. Sometimes the claim is made that "gender" is wrong when it's used to mean "sex" but this claim has no foundation; the usage has been standard for centuries.
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Re: Checkup

Postby richvh » Mon 08.18.2008 4:49 pm

"Gender" is less open to double entendre.
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Re: Checkup

Postby phreadom » Mon 08.18.2008 4:58 pm

richvh wrote:"Gender" is less open to double entendre.


Which is precisely why I used it in lieu of "sex", given the context from the previous comments. ;)
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Re: Checkup

Postby vkladchik » Mon 08.18.2008 9:21 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:Either is fine. Sometimes the claim is made that "gender" is wrong when it's used to mean "sex" but this claim has no foundation; the usage has been standard for centuries.


Centuries? Really? I just finished filling out a slew of paperwork to register my kids for school, and all the forms said "sex." Could it be a regional thing? I'm in the US.
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Re: Checkup

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 08.18.2008 9:27 pm

vkladchik wrote:Centuries? Really? I just finished filling out a slew of paperwork to register my kids for school, and all the forms said "sex." Could it be a regional thing? I'm in the US.


Both are acceptable.
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Re: Checkup

Postby phreadom » Mon 08.18.2008 10:06 pm

Not to get too wildly off-topic, but I think if I understand my lesbian friend correctly, "gender" is a term that can be used to describe your gender identity, whereas "sex" would more specifically refer to your physical make-up... so a person who might be preparing for a "sex change" operation, which they might call a "gender reassignment" or something... might identify themselves as the "opposite sex" by gender.

A complex subject to be sure... but I learned a little bit about it when we were roommates. :)

(Don't quote me on any of that... it's just the rough idea I kind of got about the current usage in that context.)

DISCLAIMER: slightly adult subject matter: http://www.indiana.edu/~lggender/sex-vs-gender.html
That should explain it in great detail if you're really interested in learning about it.
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Re: Checkup

Postby vkladchik » Tue 08.19.2008 10:47 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote:Both are acceptable.


But about the "centuries" thing, though, etymonline.com (backed up by the OED, which I also checked) mentions 1963 as the first substitution of "sex" by "gender":

"As sex took on erotic qualities in 20c., gender came to be used for "sex of a human being," often in feminist writing with reference to social attributes as much as biological qualities; this sense first attested 1963."

Anyway, to get back to the topic, it might be interesting if you had a "Gender" button and added some kind of sliding scale, a pink-to-light-blue spectrum with a little marker indicating the person's gender identity. Or something. Maybe a zodiac sign thing would be better. Remember the 動物占い fad? (なつかしい!)
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Re: Checkup

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Tue 08.19.2008 10:58 am

vkladchik wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:Both are acceptable.


But about the "centuries" thing, though, etymonline.com (backed up by the OED, which I also checked) mentions 1963 as the first substitution of "sex" by "gender":

"As sex took on erotic qualities in 20c., gender came to be used for "sex of a human being," often in feminist writing with reference to social attributes as much as biological qualities; this sense first attested 1963."


From chapter 1 of David Copperfield:
"...secondly, that I was privileged to see ghosts and spirits; both these gifts inevitably attaching, as they believed, to all unlucky infants of either gender, born towards the small hours on a Friday night." (1850)
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Re: Checkup

Postby vkladchik » Tue 08.19.2008 1:31 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:"...secondly, that I was privileged to see ghosts and spirits; both these gifts inevitably attaching, as they believed, to all unlucky infants of either gender, born towards the small hours on a Friday night." (1850)


Oh I see what you mean. Yes, in fact, the OED shows "gender" meaning "masculine" or "feminine" (or "neuter," when talking about grammar, one of its first usages) going waaay back before that. What I meant was "gender" specifically replacing "sex" in questionnaires, forms, etc. I've never seen a form that asks the respondent to indicate "gender." Which is why I brought it up, since that's the kind of thing we were talking about.

Sorry for not making myself clearer.
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Re: Checkup

Postby hevrae » Sun 08.24.2008 1:51 pm

I'm sorry for the very late reply but I went for vacations and only came back today.


vkladchik, não te preocupes, o teu português é bastante bom, obrigado por tentares fazer isso; apesar de poderes tê-lo feito em inglês. Aquém de o pero e o quere, que respectivamente me português equivale a mas e quer, está óptimo :)


Bom, se você quere pôr-se teimoso, bom, mas o que você escreveu soa um pouco estranho, porque você está usando a palavra “mina-san”, e a combinação “mina-san” + a forma familiar do verbo é um pouco discordante.

Sim, eu sei disso, obrigado. Na verdade foi apenas no intuito de ser algo pomposo, mas que rapidamente corta.

A “interpretação” que eu tive na mente tinha a ver com "que poderia ser Hanamachi (no futuro)". Em todo caso, agora parece que você quis dizer que "o que pode ser Hanamachi" queria dizer "uma manera de ver a cidade," e não no sentido do seu potencial.

Sem problemas : ).

Não é nem discordante nem enfático. Só é estranho. Acredite-me. Não terá o efeito que quere.

Não há problemas :), eu decidi, após alguma reflexão, ir com 天空 - firmamento -, é suficiente :).

Mas porqué só tem explicacão de tres fotos?

1: 何としても、天(そら)が常に私の情熱の一つあった。

O céu.

2: 芸者のように、人人の美さが、私に、いつでも触れてはならないものだ。

As gueixas.

3: 花と花弁が女女しい優美さを表して、発する。

As flores.


Sem querer ofender respeito nenhum, eu postei o link para a foto em cima; e mais que tudo, não tens que questionar sobre as fotos que falo, uma justificação cobre mais que uma foto, com efeito ou não.

Faltava suficiente contexto para compreender isso.

Não há espiga.

Porque eu não tinha nem a menor idea do que você quis dizer com isto. Como eu disse antes, isto só é minha interpretação do que você poderia querer dizer com isto: いやはや、背景にあるその白黒の写真4枚は花町が出来る私の通訳なんだ。

"通訳"?!?


http://www.kanji-a-day.com/dictionary/goi.php
つうやく 通訳 interpretation
:D.

O problema é que "paixão" não se pode traducir assim. É um problema lexical, uma falta muito fundamental de correspondencia entre as linguas.

Traduzir*
Digo e redigo que está como eu quero, talvez expressei-me mal; baseei-me em: http://www.kanji-a-day.com/dictionary/goi.php
Tenta compreender, que como já disse, eu não tenho aulas e as mínimas aulas ficam a 200km de distância, não é assim tão perto quanto isso.

Outra vez, o problema é mais grave do que você pensa. Não se pode dizer tão facilmente. Tem que dizer algo como:

芸者のような人間美は私にとって触れてはならないほどの尊いものです。

Pero, mesmo com isto, o sentido do que você quere dizer não se transmite muito bem. O lector japonês não poderá compreender

O que sugeres?

Em primeiro lugar, 女々しい quere dizer débil, efeminado, em um sentido infeliz. Tanbém tem problemas com a gramatica.

Com efeito, é normal que eu não compreenda a variedade de compreensões das palabras; aliás, tenho alguma dificuldade em usar algo afemeninado como débil :).

--

Again, though 天空 has its own unique resonances, which are indeed poetic, but still out of place here. It would kind of be like saying "The heavenly vault (o firmamento) has always been my passion." It loses the Christian ring (although ironically the English translation gains it) if you use 天空 (as opposed to 天(そら) which definitely does sound/look Christian), but it's still wrong. Why not just say 空? What's there to emphasize? If you want to add something to make the word stand out, call it 青空. Or you could say something like 空には色々な表情があって、その1つ1つの表情を眺めて、私は昔からインスピレーションを受けました.

Seriously, though. You can't just will a literal translation to have the meaning you want. Japanese is a very, very different language. Learn to play by its rules.


I'm very determinated in leaving it, thank you. Will you please stop asking it? I never meant it to have any religious interpretation. It's to emphasize the fact that it's not mearly the sky as the chemicals but also something more ethereal - not religious, spiritual.

You actually think I don't know the differences are huge, but one has to start somewhere; no one can be perfect like you :).

空には色々な表情があって、その1つ1つの表情を眺めて I can't understand very well this part :S.


--

coco wrote:Regarding ~にとって, I think this page and Kgb4life-san's post ( 24 Jul 2008) of this page may help you.
I also hope vkladchik-san will kindly give us a detailed explanation.

Although I don't think you asked about いやはや in Portuguese,I am going to tell about it. 

いやはや is used when you are surprised or amazed at something that is beyond your expectation and it isn't a preferable situation to you. ( It is mostly used as a negative connotation.) Moreover, it is not a common interjection especially for young generation.
Therefore, I don't think いやはや is a suitable word in your context. 
As vkladchink-san said, さて is much better if you want to put an interjection.


Hmmm, ok, now I understood it, thank you. Oh and I'll look into that link now, thank you very much.
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