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南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 08.25.2008 4:04 pm

vkladchik wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:に is the copula, なん is an emphatic, either なむ or なん depending on the period of Japanese.

に is a copula? I can't find that in Shirane. Wouldn't it be more logical to assume になんありけり, with ありけり elided? It seems like elision is pretty common in this style.


Even if the ありける is there, に is still a 連用形 copula. なり is a contraction of にあり, but the に can come back out when the copula is "clefted" with something like なむ. になむありける is equivalent to なりける.

(It has to be ありける rather than ありけり because of the なむ; this is something called 係り結び)
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby richvh » Mon 08.25.2008 4:46 pm

Hm, I've been looking in the preview of Classical Japanese: A Grammar on Google Books, and it's saying that なむ follows the 未然形 (well, actually where I saw it, it was saying that なむ was one of the things that could follow the 未然形.) Don't know how that works out with the copula...
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 08.25.2008 5:46 pm

richvh wrote:Hm, I've been looking in the preview of Classical Japanese: A Grammar on Google Books, and it's saying that なむ follows the 未然形 (well, actually where I saw it, it was saying that なむ was one of the things that could follow the 未然形.) Don't know how that works out with the copula...


I am not aware of any なむ that can follow a 未然形 -- what page is this on?

(Now, this なむ might actually be な (未然形 of the completion/realized state particle ぬ) plus む (conjecture/intention suffix), rather than the emphatic particle なむ.)
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby richvh » Mon 08.25.2008 5:57 pm

Page 25, section 3.1.1.
[The Mizenkei] is followed by an auxiliary verb of... desire (...namu)...
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby vkladchik » Mon 08.25.2008 6:15 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:Even if the ありける is there, に is still a 連用形 copula. なり is a contraction of にあり, but the に can come back out when the copula is "clefted" with something like なむ. になむありける is equivalent to なりける.

Gotcha. It looks like it has to be the emphatic なむ, because if it were the なむ of な (perfective) + む (speculation/intention), the meaning would have to be "strong certainty about the future," "strong intention," or "appropriateness," and none of those seem to fit here. Shirane does say that the perfective ぬ follows the 連用形 though, not the 未然形.

Question: since に seems to be a variant 連用形 of なり, are なりぬ and にぬ interchangeable, and/or is one more common than the other? (Sorry to hijack, just a quick question.)

I found this chart.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 08.25.2008 7:00 pm

richvh wrote:Page 25, section 3.1.1.
[The Mizenkei] is followed by an auxiliary verb of... desire (...namu)...


Hmm, OK, that one is in Kojien. I was not aware of that form. They have an example from Genji: 惟光(これみつ)とく参らなむと思す which I guess means "Genji hoped that Koremitsu would come quickly."

Question: since に seems to be a variant 連用形 of なり, are なりぬ and にぬ interchangeable, and/or is one more common than the other? (Sorry to hijack, just a quick question.)


This I don't know.

Also for the record, the なむ here is definition 2 in my obunsha kogo jiten: 文の結びの「ある」「言ふ」「侍る」などを省略した形で余情を表す。
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby richvh » Mon 08.25.2008 7:17 pm

Next sentence:
されば義(ぎ)に仗(よつ)て死(し)をだも辞(ぢ)せざる、里見(さとみ)季基(すゑもと)を首(はじめ)として、凡(およそ)持氏(もちうぢ)恩顧(おんこ)の武士(ぶし)、招(まねか)ざれどもはせ集(あつま)りて、結城(ゆふき)の城(しろ)を守(まも)りしかば、大軍(たいぐん)に囲(かこま)れながら、一トたびも不覚(ふかく)を取(と)らず。

Modernized:
だから義(ぎ)によって死(し)んだも辞(じ)せざる、里見(さとみ)季基(すえもと)を首(はじめ)として、およそ持氏(もちうじ)恩顧(おんこ)の武士(ぶし)、招(まね)かなかってもはせ集(あつ)まって、結城(ゆうき)の城(しろ)を守(まも)ったので、大軍(たいぐん)に囲(かこ)まれながら、一トたびも不覚(ふかく)を取(と)らず。

Translation:
Therefore, warriors who owed their loyalty to Mochiuji and who would not give up their honor even in death, with Satomi Suemoto prominent among them, gathered without invitation, and since they were defending Yuuki Castle, while it was surrounded by the great army, it was for a while not taken.

What's the function of the はせ in 招かざれどもはせ集まりて? I assume that the katakana ト in 一トたび is indicating that it should be read ひとたび rather than いちたび.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 08.25.2008 7:21 pm

richvh wrote:What's the function of the はせ in 招かざれどもはせ集まりて?


I'm pretty sure it's 馳せ集まりて (hurried and gathered)

I assume that the katakana ト in 一トかび is indicating that it should be read ひとたび rather than いちたび.


I think so. I've seen that on Meiji period works too.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby richvh » Mon 08.25.2008 7:41 pm

Next sentence:
永亨(ゑいきやう)十一年(ねん)の春(はる)の比(ころ)より、嘉吉(かきつ)元年(ぐわんねん)の四月まで、篭城(ろうぜう)三年(みとせ)に及(およ)ぶものから、外(ほか)に援(たすけ)の兵(つわもの)なければ、糧(かて)も矢種(やだね)も竭果(つきはて)つ。

Modernized:
永亨(えいきょう)十一年(ねん)の春(はる)の頃(ころ)より、嘉吉(かきつ)元年(がんねん)の四月まで、篭城(ろうじょう)三年(みとせ)に及(およ)ぶものから、外(ほか)に援(たす)けの兵(つわもの)なかったので、糧(かて)も矢種(やだね)も尽(き)果(は)てた。

Translation:
Since they held out in the castle for 3 years, from the spring of the eleventh year of the Eikyou era to the second month of the first year of the Kakitsu era, and there were no more reinforcements, their provisions and arrows were exhausted.

What's the ものから's function?
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby AJBryant » Mon 08.25.2008 9:34 pm

Okay, so where did my bloody post go?

Dammit!



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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby richvh » Mon 08.25.2008 9:37 pm

Probably got postponed when someone else posted while you were composing, and you navigated away before you noticed. I hope you can recreate it.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby vkladchik » Mon 08.25.2008 10:10 pm

richvh wrote:
だから義(ぎ)によって死(し)んだも辞(じ)せざる、里見(さとみ)季基(すえもと)を首(はじめ)として、およそ持氏(もちうじ)恩顧(おんこ)の武士(ぶし)、招(まね)かなかってもはせ集(あつ)まって、結城(ゆうき)の城(しろ)を守(まも)ったので、大軍(たいぐん)に囲(かこ)まれながら、一トたびも不覚(ふかく)を取(と)らず。

Translation:
Therefore, warriors who owed their loyalty to Mochiuji and who would not give up their honor even in death, with Satomi Suemoto prominent among them, gathered without invitation, and since they were defending Yuuki Castle, while it was surrounded by the great army, it was for a while not taken.


ひとたびも=一度も, right? If so, then the castle wasn't taken even once, and the ながら would sound to me like "despite being surrounded by the great army." In other words, all these warriors came even though nobody sent out the call for them, and thanks to their speedy arrival, their side didn't suffer a single defeat, despite being under siege by a great host.

[Disclaimer: my previous disclaimer about my contribution being all guesses remains in force. 8) I'm just here to learn from the discussion.]
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 08.25.2008 10:20 pm

richvh wrote:Next sentence:
永亨(ゑいきやう)十一年(ねん)の春(はる)の比(ころ)より、嘉吉(かきつ)元年(ぐわんねん)の四月まで、篭城(ろうぜう)三年(みとせ)に及(およ)ぶものから、外(ほか)に援(たすけ)の兵(つわもの)なければ、糧(かて)も矢種(やだね)も竭果(つきはて)つ。

Modernized:
永亨(えいきょう)十一年(ねん)の春(はる)の頃(ころ)より、嘉吉(かきつ)元年(がんねん)の四月まで、篭城(ろうじょう)三年(みとせ)に及(およ)ぶものから、外(ほか)に援(たす)けの兵(つわもの)なかったので、糧(かて)も矢種(やだね)も尽(き)果(は)てた。

Translation:
Since they held out in the castle for 3 years, from the spring of the eleventh year of the Eikyou era to the second month of the first year of the Kakitsu era, and there were no more reinforcements, their provisions and arrows were exhausted.

What's the ものから's function?


Koujien has two definitions for ものから:
1. ではあるが
2. ので
It's probably 2 here -- because the siege extended to 3 years, they ran out of supplies and arrows.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby richvh » Tue 08.26.2008 7:21 am

Remainder of the first paragraph:
「今(いま)ははや脱(のが)るゝ途(みち)なし。只(たゞ)もろともに死(し)ねや」とて、結城(ゆふき)の一族(いちぞく)、里見(さとみ)の主従(しゆう%\)、城戸(きど)推(おし)ひらきて血戦(けつせん)し、込入(こみい)る敵(てき)をうち靡(なび)けて、衆皆(みな/\)討死(うちしに)する程(ほど)に、その城(しろ)竟(つひ)に陥(おちい)りて、両(ふたりの)公達(きんだち)は生拘(いけど)られ、美濃(みの)の垂井(たるゐ)にて害(がい)せらる。俗(よ)にいふ結城(ゆふき)合戦(かつせん)とはこれ也。

Modernized:
「今(いま)ははや逃(のが)れる道(みち)はない。ただもろともに死(し)ねや」と言って、結城(ゆうき)の一族(いちぞく)、里見(さとみ)の主従(しゆうじゅう)、城戸(きど)押(お)しひらいて血戦(けっせん)し、込入(こみい)る敵(てき)をうち靡(なび)いて、衆皆(みなみな)討死(うちじに)する程(ほど)に、その城(しろ)竟(つい)に陥(おちい)って、二人(ふたり)の公達(きんだち)は生(い)捕(ど)られ、美濃(みの)の垂井(たるい)で害(がい)せらる。世(よ)にいう結城(ゆうき)合戦(かっせん)とはこれである。

Translation:
Saying, "There is now no way for us to escape. Let us just die together," the whole Yuuki clan, and Lord Satomi with his vassals, opened the gates and fought a bloody battle, tossing around the enemies that pressed in, nearly all were killed, and finally the castle fell. The two princes were captured and executed at Tarui in Mino. This is what the world calls the battle of Yuuki.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby vkladchik » Tue 08.26.2008 9:26 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote:It's probably 2 here -- because the siege extended to 3 years, they ran out of supplies and arrows.


Another reason to think 2 applies here is because the entry in Kojien has a Manyoshu example for 1, which would make it Nara grammar (which is so different that it has its own separate section in Shirane), whereas 2 states:

広辞苑第5版 wrote:理由を示す。(中世に始まり、近世で一般化した) …だから。…ので。奥の細道「さすがに辺土の遺風忘れざる―殊勝に覚えらる」


In other words, this is a medieval usage, and since 八犬伝 is a medieval text, this one would appear to apply.
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