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南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Tue 08.26.2008 9:30 am

Yeah, that's another thing -- although it's worth noting that the appearance of a 万葉集 quote in a Koujien entry does not necessarily mean that the usage is confined to Nara-period Japanese. There are some entries for words still in modern informal speech that have 万葉集 citations.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby richvh » Tue 08.26.2008 10:10 am

Does late Edo period (1814-1842) really count as medieval? (The setting is certainly medieval.)

Start of the next paragraph:
かゝりし程(ほど)に、季基(すゑもと)の嫡男(ちやくなん)、里見(さとみ)治部(ぢぶの)大夫(たいふ)義実(よしさね)ぬし、このときは又(また)太郎(たらう)御(おん)曹司(ぞうし)と呼(よば)れつゝ、年(とし)なほ廾(はたち)に満(みた)ざれ共、武勇(ぶゆう)智略(ちりやく)は父祖(ふそ)にもまして、その才(さえ)文道(ふみのみち)にも長(たけ)たり。

Modernized:
かかった程(ほど)に、季基(すえもと)の嫡男(ちゃくなん)、里見(さとみ)治部(じぶの)大夫(たいふ)義実(よしざね)ぬし、このときは又太郎(またたろう)御(おん)曹司(ぞうし)と呼(よば)れた、年(とし)なお二十(はたち)に満(み)たないけど、武勇(ぶゆう)智略(ちりゃく)は父祖(ふそ)にもまして、その才(さい)文(ふみ)の道(みち)にも長(た)けた。

Translation:
Even then, Suemoto's eldest son, Lord Satomi Yoshizane, who at that time was called Matatarou, was not yet 20, but he surpassed his ancestors in martial prowess, and also excelled in scholarship.

I assume the 共 after 満ざれ is ateji for the conjunctive particle ども?
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Tue 08.26.2008 11:02 am

richvh wrote:Does late Edo period (1814-1842) really count as medieval?


As far as Japanese written style, yes. Even early Meiji can count.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby vkladchik » Tue 08.26.2008 12:10 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:Yeah, that's another thing -- although it's worth noting that the appearance of a 万葉集 quote in a Koujien entry does not necessarily mean that the usage is confined to Nara-period Japanese. There are some entries for words still in modern informal speech that have 万葉集 citations.

Ah, right. Good point.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby vkladchik » Tue 08.26.2008 12:22 pm

richvh wrote:
Does late Edo period (1814-1842) really count as medieval? (The setting is certainly medieval.)

I assume the 共 after 満ざれ is ateji for the conjunctive particle ども?


This is interesting, because the author was writing in a style very foreign to his own speech. You or I could get along perfectly well in 19th century Edo, language-wise, so it's almost like Charles Dickens imitating the language of Chaucer. Which makes me wonder if the 共 isn't quite frankly just a plain ole mistake. 共 can be pronounced ども, as in 共々 or 阿呆共 (アホども), so he might have thought the conjunction ども could be written this way, too. I think by this time the form would've crystallized into け(れ)ど(も). In other words, the mizenkei+domo construction would have ceased being productive, and fossilized into a few forms like 言えども and perhaps なれども.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby vkladchik » Tue 08.26.2008 12:38 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:Hmm, OK, that one is in Kojien. I was not aware of that form. They have an example from Genji: 惟光(これみつ)とく参らなむと思す which I guess means "Genji hoped that Koremitsu would come quickly."

I looked it up in the index in Shirane, and found this this (about 100 pages ahead of where I currently am):
"The final particle namu follows the mizenkei and expresses the speaker/writer's wish or hope. [...] In contrast to baya, which indicates a wish for oneself, namu expresses the desire for action by someone or something else. Do not confuse this final particle namu with the bound particle namu, which comes in the middle of the sentence and is tied at the end of the predicate by the rentaikei [...] or with the compound auxiliary verb na-mu, the mizenkei of the perfective auxiliary verb nu and the speculative auxiliary verb mu."
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Tue 08.26.2008 12:38 pm

I'm not sure it's necessarily a "mistake"; ateji were a lot more numerous in pre-WW2 Japanese, especially Edo/Meiji, so you find a lot of stuff like this -- I've seen Meiji texts with the ます ending of verbs written as 升, for instance. I'm hesitant to label any of these mistakes because there were no real rules or official standards for writing.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby vkladchik » Tue 08.26.2008 12:41 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:I'm not sure it's necessarily a "mistake"; ateji were a lot more numerous in pre-WW2 Japanese, especially Edo/Meiji, so you find a lot of stuff like this -- I've seen Meiji texts with the ます ending of verbs written as 升, for instance. I'm hesitant to label any of these mistakes because there were no real rules or official standards for writing.

I see. I guess it's similar to the situation in English before spelling "rules" were set down, and anyone could spell anything almost anyway they wanted, which makes reading even Shakespeare in manuscript interesting, thanks to multiple spellings of the same word in one text: eg., city, citty, cittie, citie, etc.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby richvh » Tue 08.26.2008 12:55 pm

Next sentence, up to the start of a speech by Suetomo:
三年(みとせ)以來(このかた)父(ちゝ)と共(とも)に、篭城(ろうぜう)の艱苦(かんく)を厭(いと)はず、この日(ひ)も諸軍(しよぐん)に先(さき)たちて、敵(てき)十四五騎(き)斬(きつ)て落(おと)し、なほよき敵(てき)と引組(ひきくん)て、討死(うちしに)せんとて進(すゝ)みしを、父(ちゝ)の季基(すゑもと)遙(はるか)に見て、遽(いそがは)しく呼(よ)びとゞめ、

Modernized:
三年(みとせ)以來(このかた)父(ちち)と共(とも)に、篭城(ろうじょう)の艱苦(かんく)を厭(いと)わず、この日(ひ)も諸軍(しょぐん)に先(さき)たって、敵(てき)十四五騎(き)斬(き)り落(お)とし、なおよい敵(てき)と引(ひ)き組(く)んで、討死(うちじに)しようと思って進(すす)みを、父(ちち)の季基(すえもと)遙(はる)かに見て、遽(いそがわ)しく呼(よ)びとどめ、

He, along with his father, had for three years withstood the privations of the siege, and even on this day he set out with the army, overthrew about 15 enemies, and as he was proceeding to seek stronger enemies and his death in battle, his father, Suemoto, saw him in the distance, and frantically called out for him to stop...

I'm thinking the たちて after 先 is some form of the verb たつ (probably 発つ), right?
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby vkladchik » Tue 08.26.2008 2:11 pm

richvh wrote:I'm thinking the たちて after 先 is some form of the verb たつ (probably 発つ), right?

If it's anything like mod. Jap. 先立つ (さきだつ), it means to "precede" or to do something before someone else. It sounds here like he killed the fifteen before the other fighters.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby richvh » Tue 08.26.2008 3:46 pm

I see; I looked for さきたつ but didn't think to look for さきだつ. So I guess it's like "He led the army in slaying 15 enemies that day."

The first bit of Suemoto's speech:
「やをれ義實(よしさね)、勇士(ゆうし)は元(かうべ)を喪(うしな)ふことを忘(わす)れず。

Modernized:
「よれ義實(よしざね)、勇士(ゆうし)は元(こうべ)を喪(うしな)うことを忘(わす)れず。


There are a couple bits I'm not at all sure of, やをれ (can't find a verb in online dictionaries that started as やをる) so I'm not sure if it's the command form of よる (probably 寄る) or the interjection やれ. The other bit is 元(かうべ), my best guess is that it's irregular kanji for 首/頭(こうべ) "head."

Tentative translation:
"Come here, Yoshizane, a brave man doesn't forget that he will lose his head.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Tue 08.26.2008 5:35 pm

richvh wrote:The first bit of Suemoto's speech:
「やをれ義實(よしさね)、勇士(ゆうし)は元(かうべ)を喪(うしな)ふことを忘(わす)れず。

Modernized:
「よれ義實(よしざね)、勇士(ゆうし)は元(こうべ)を喪(うしな)うことを忘(わす)れず。


There are a couple bits I'm not at all sure of, やをれ (can't find a verb in online dictionaries that started as やをる)


やをれ is the old kana spelling, so you'll want to look for やおれ -- Koujien gives a redirect to やうれ, which it defines as <<感>>呼びかけの語。やい、お前。おいおい。やおれ。

the other bit is 元(かうべ), my best guess is that it's irregular kanji for 首/頭(こうべ) "head."


I agree.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby richvh » Tue 08.26.2008 6:24 pm

Next bit of Suemoto's speech:
けふを限(かぎ)りと思ふこと、理(ことわ)りあるに似(に)たれども、父子(ふし)もろ共(とも)に討死(うちしに)せば、先祖(せんそ)へ不孝(ふこう)これに過(すぎ)ず。

Modernized:
きょうを限(かぎ)りと思うこと、理(ことわり)あるに似(に)たけど、父子(ふし)もろ共(とも)に討死(うちじに)すれば、先祖(せんぞ)へ不孝(ふこう)これに過(す)ぎず。


I'm guessing that けふ is 今日 because I'm not seeing any other きょう that was けふ in online dictionaries. I'm also a bit unsure about the last clause, because the modern language version has it as 先祖への不幸は、これにすぐるものはない, which (to my untrained in Classical Japanese eye) seems to be saying something different from the above.

Tentative translation:
If your thoughts are limited to today, it seems logical, but if both father and son die in battle, it is not more than impiety to our ancestors.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby becki_kanou » Tue 08.26.2008 8:28 pm

richvh wrote:
I'm guessing that けふ is 今日 because I'm not seeing any other きょう that was けふ in online dictionaries.


I hesitate to even post in this thread since my exposure to pre-modern Japanese is limited to studying 百人一首 as a hobby, but the same phrase けふを限りの actually appears in 百人一首 #54 with the reading 今日を限りの given, so to my eye it would appear to be the correct choice.

That said, this thread has been very educational for me.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby vkladchik » Tue 08.26.2008 8:41 pm

richvh wrote:I'm guessing that けふ is 今日 because I'm not seeing any other きょう that was けふ in online dictionaries.


今日を限りに is a common expression in MJ.

I'm also a bit unsure about the last clause, because the modern language version has it as 先祖への不幸は、これにすぐるものはない, which (to my untrained in Classical Japanese eye) seems to be saying something different from the above.

What's interesting is that the modern translation seems to change 不孝 into 不幸, which does make the sentence make more sense. "Nothing would bring the ancestors more sorrow than for the father and son to die in battle." Doesn't seem very chivalric, but there you have it. :?

FWIW, Kojien has this to say about suguru: 多くの中からえり取る。より抜く。源氏物語桐壺「御方々の人々、世の中におしなべたらぬをえりととのへ―・りてさぶらはせ給ふ」。「精鋭を―・る」

I don't know what to make of that. Maybe Yudan Taiteki will know.
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