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南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby richvh » Wed 08.27.2008 8:49 pm

Do you mean しっている? I can't for the life of me figure out how to make している work in that sentence.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 08.27.2008 9:04 pm

richvh wrote:Do you mean しっている?


Yes, sorry.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby richvh » Wed 08.27.2008 10:04 pm

How does that conjugation work? As far as I can tell, り attaches to the 連用形 of 四段動詞, which in the case of 知る would be 知り, so how do you arrive at しれり?

Next bit of Yoshizane's speech:
只(たゞ)冥土(めいど)黄泉(くわうせん)のおん供(とも)とこそ思ひ奉(たてまつ)れ。

Modernized:
ただ冥土(めいど)黄泉(こうせん)のお供(とも)とこそ思い奉(たてまつ)れ。

Translation:
Just think of going to the afterlife together.

Is 思ひ奉れ equivalent to 思ってください here? It seems to be a command form of a humble auxiliary verb;
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 08.27.2008 10:13 pm

richvh wrote:How does that conjugation work? As far as I can tell, り attaches to the 連用形 of 四段動詞, which in the case of 知る would be 知り, so how do you arrive at しれり?


It's a contraction of しりあり (you won't find this explanation in many books; a lot of places say it's 已然形 + り, but the source is 連用形 + あり contracted.)

Next bit of Yoshizane's speech:
只(たゞ)冥土(めいど)黄泉(くわうせん)のおん供(とも)とこそ思ひ奉(たてまつ)れ。

Modernized:
ただ冥土(めいど)黄泉(こうせん)のお供(とも)とこそ思い奉(たてまつ)れ。

Translation:
Just think of going to the afterlife together.

Is 思ひ奉れ equivalent to 思ってください here? It seems to be a command form of a humble auxiliary verb;


That's a possibility. In Nara and Heian Japanese, having a こそ required the end-of-clause verb to be in 已然形, but I seem to recall hearing that the rule disappeared in later Japanese so I don't know if that's relevant here. The command form certainly does seem to be what fits here.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby richvh » Thu 08.28.2008 7:25 am

End of Yoshizane's speech:
死(しす)べき処(ところ)に得(え)死(しな)ずして、笑(わら)ひを招(まね)き、名(な)を汚(けが)し、先祖(せんそ)を辱(はづか)しめ奉(たてまつ)らんことは、願(ねがは)しからず候」と答(こたふ)る辞(ことば)勇(いさま)しき。

Modernized a bit:
死(し)すべき所(ところ)に得(え)死(し)なずして、笑(わら)いを招(まね)き、名(な)を汚(けが)し、先祖(せんぞ)を恥(は)ずかしめ奉(たてまつ)らんことは、願(ねが)いませんでした」と答(こた)える言葉(ことば)勇(いさ)ましい。

Translation:
Not dying at the place I should die, inviting laughter, soiling our name and embarrassing our ancestors is not what I wanted," he replied with brave words.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Thu 08.28.2008 8:42 am

richvh wrote:End of Yoshizane's speech:
死(しす)べき処(ところ)に得(え)死(しな)ずして、笑(わら)ひを招(まね)き、名(な)を汚(けが)し、先祖(せんそ)を辱(はづか)しめ奉(たてまつ)らんことは、願(ねがは)しからず候」と答(こたふ)る辞(ことば)勇(いさま)しき。

Modernized a bit:
死(し)すべき所(ところ)に得(え)死(し)なずして、笑(わら)いを招(まね)き、名(な)を汚(けが)し、先祖(せんぞ)を恥(は)ずかしめ奉(たてまつ)らんことは、願(ねが)いませんでした」と答(こた)える言葉(ことば)勇(いさ)ましい。

Translation:
Not dying at the place I should die, inviting laughter, soiling our name and embarrassing our ancestors is not what I wanted," he replied with brave words.


え(得) + verb + ず means "cannot do [verb]".

The しからず候 part is not in past tense.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby richvh » Thu 08.28.2008 9:37 am

Oh, I see, I didn't even think that there might be an adjective 思わしい. So 思しからず候 would be 思わしくないです in modern language (was trying to figure out how to parse しからず from the 助動詞 listed on Tony's bungo chart, didn't think to check the adjective portion.) So the sentence would be better rendered as "Not being abe to die at the place I should die, inviting laughter, soiling our name and embarrassing our ancestors is not desirable."

The lead up to Suemoto's reply.
皃(かほ)つく/\とうちまもる、父(ちゝ)は頻(しきり)に嘆息(たんそく)し、

Modernized:
顔(かお)つくつくとうちまもる、父(ちち)は頻(しき)りに嘆息(たんそく)し、

Translation:
Staring at his face, his father sighed repeatedly, ...
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby richvh » Thu 08.28.2008 1:05 pm

Start of Suemoto's reply.
「義実(よしさね)微妙(いみじく)申たり。さりながら、圓頂(ゑんちやう)黒衣(こくえ)に容(さま)を更(かえ)、出家(しゆつけ)沙門(しやもん)になれといはゞ、親(おや)の教(をしえ)に惇(もと)りもせめ。

Modernized.
「義実(よしざね)微妙(いみじく)申たり。しかしながら、円頂(えんちょう)黒衣(こくい)に容(さま)を変(か)え、出家(しゅっけ)沙門(しゃもん)になれといわば、親(おや)の教(おし)えに悖(もと)りもせめ。

Very tentative translation:
"Yoshizane, this is complicated(?). However, if I were to tell you to shave your head, don black clothes and become a wandering priest, that would go against my teachings.

Sticky points: the いみじく reading on 微妙 and the 申たり after it, and the もせめ at the end.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby vkladchik » Thu 08.28.2008 2:03 pm

richvh wrote:"Yoshizane, this is complicated(?)

Again, working from MJ, いみじくも means "well (done)," so here is might be "Well put, Yoshizane."
もせめ at the end.

My only guess is that some bound particle has been elided, leaving behind the 已然形. Can't explain the せ after the 連用形 of もとる, though, so obviously my guess makes no sense.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby richvh » Thu 08.28.2008 2:43 pm

vkladchik wrote:
richvh wrote:"Yoshizane, this is complicated(?)

Again, working from MJ, いみじくも means "well (done)," so here is might be "Well put, Yoshizane."

Then that would make 申 an ateji for も, I guess.
もせめ at the end.

My only guess is that some bound particle has been elided, leaving behind the 已然形. Can't explain the せ after the 連用形 of もとる, though, so obviously my guess makes no sense.

I was thinking that the せめ was from 攻む/責む, both of which are 下二段動詞. Maybe it's 命令形, and it should be "condemn me for going against my principals"?

Continuing Suemoto's speech:
『時節(じせつ)を俟(まち)て家(いへ)を興(おこ)せ』といふを推辞(いなむ)は不孝(ふこう)也。

Modernized:
『時節(じせつ)を待(ま)って家(いえ)を興(おこ)せ』ということを推辞(いなむ)は不孝(ふこう)である。

Translation:
Refusing to 'bide your time and revive the house' is filial impiety.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby two_heads_talking » Thu 08.28.2008 2:50 pm

richvh wrote:Start of Suemoto's reply.
「義実(よしさね)微妙(いみじく)申たり。さりながら、圓頂(ゑんちやう)黒衣(こくえ)に容(さま)を更(かえ)、出家(しゆつけ)沙門(しやもん)になれといはゞ、親(おや)の教(をしえ)に惇(もと)りもせめ。

Modernized.
「義実(よしざね)微妙(いみじく)申たり。しかしながら、円頂(えんちょう)黒衣(こくい)に容(さま)を変(か)え、出家(しゅっけ)沙門(しゃもん)になれといわば、親(おや)の教(おし)えに悖(もと)りもせめ。

Very tentative translation:
"Yoshizane, this is complicated(?). However, if I were to tell you to shave your head, don black clothes and become a wandering priest, that would go against my teachings.

Sticky points: the いみじく reading on 微妙 and the 申たり after it, and the もせめ at the end.


Alot of this is a bit over my head (as far as the reading of the kanji is concerned..)

But I always understood いみじく to mean: admirably; exquisitely; aptly

Could the reading of that character 微妙 also be びみょう (1) delicate; subtle; sensitive; (2) difficult; delicate (situation); complicated; (3) doubtful; questionable; dicey? That matches more with the complicated definition you are using. Delicate might also be a good word to utilize in English.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby richvh » Thu 08.28.2008 3:14 pm

two_heads_talking wrote:But I always understood いみじく to mean: admirably; exquisitely; aptly

Actually, that would be the meaning of いみじくも (the 連用形 of the classical adjective いみじ plus も), something I wasn't aware of until vkladchik brought it up.

Could the reading of that character 微妙 also be びみょう (1) delicate; subtle; sensitive; (2) difficult; delicate (situation); complicated; (3) doubtful; questionable; dicey? That matches more with the complicated definition you are using. Delicate might also be a good word to utilize in English.

Yes, that's the canonical reading of 微妙.
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Thu 08.28.2008 3:31 pm

I'm pretty sure it's いみじく もうしたり; in other words, the 申 is standing for もうし. You should not expect Meiji/Edo-era texts to conform to post-WW2 okurigana rules. Things like this, where part of even the conjugated section of the verb are expressed by the kanji, are common. In this case, since たり attaches only to the 連用形; it's "obviously" もうし.

My reading of もとりもせめ is that せめ is the 命令形 of せむ and that the whole phrase means "don't go against [even in this extreme case]"
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby vkladchik » Thu 08.28.2008 3:34 pm

richvh wrote:Then that would make 申 an ateji for も, I guess.

I just assumed the し of もうしたり was subsumed into the 申, some kind of "旧送り仮名使い".
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Re: 南総里見八犬伝(文語版)

Postby richvh » Thu 08.28.2008 3:58 pm

The modern version doesn't help much on that sentence, since they cut it down to 義実、わしはおまえに頭をそって出家せよ、といっているのではない。 Maybe inuinu or Garappachi will chime in?

Suemoto's speech continues:
しらずや足利(あしかゞ)持氏(もちうぢ)ぬしは、譜代(ふだい)相傳(さうでん)の主君(しゆくん)にあらず。

Modernized:
足利(あしかが)持氏(もちうじ)ぬしは、譜代(ふだい)相伝(そうでん)の主君(しゆくん)ではないと知らないか。

(Not sure if I did write by moving しらずや to the end like that.)
Translation:
Don't you know that Lord Ashikaga Mojiuji wasn't our hereditary overlord?
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