MMM wrote:...... if you as 10 Japanese people to name 10 manga, you are going to hear the names of 100 manga from Japan. When Japanese people think "漫画" they aren't thinking Superman and Wonder Woman.
If you take that logic and apply it to the English word "movie" then you could argue that word only refers to cinema produced in the USA.
I don't follow you there. If you asked 10 Japanese to name 10 movies, I wouldn't bet they would all be American.
MMM wrote: I am one of those people that got into manga after getting into Japanese and Japan (nowadays it is often the opposite), so yes, I want my manga to be from Japan. It's more than the art, but the culture that authentic manga has that American-born manga doesn't.
I have picked up "manga" that turned out to be written, drawn and published in America, and I did feel cheated. I don't think that makes me crazy.
I don't think it makes you "crazy" but it definitely makes you weird.
Other than Japanese produced manga actually SET in Japan (e.g., Maison Ikkoku, etc.) what does it matter WHAT culture produced it? As long as you get your spikey-hair, big eyes, chibi cutey, and outlandish sound effects down, what does it matter? A space opera (e.g., Galaxy Express) is a space opera. A historical epic (e.g., Vinland Saga) is a historical epic.
I am getting the feeling my posts aren't being read, as I addressed this above. Manga is not just "spikey-hair, big eyes, chibi cutey, and outlandish sound effects". I am not sure if you are being sarcastic, but that stereotype is exactly what I am talking about. Most manga ISN'T those things.
Yes, there are historical epics set in Japan, space operas set in space, and even some manga that is set in the US (Gunsmith Cats) and all over the world (Blood+). Just because it isn't set in Japan doesn't mean it isn't entrenched in Japanese culture. It's a window into that Japanese culture that I am looking for. You will see things in Japanese manga you would never see in an American comics (OEL manga or not). Anyone can draw big eyes and spiky hair, but who can write with authenticity the sempai/kohai relationship between two samurai warriors, or two Japanese high school students, for that matter? It is that authenticity that I believe makes calling something a Japanese name that isn't from Japan misleading.
The only reason the country of origin would matter is an irrational attachment of import to that aspect of the comic rather than whether the comic is good or bad.
A desire for authenticity is irrational?
That doesn't make sense to me.
I am not one of those manga fans that is anti-American comics. I probably spend more on American comics than I do on manga in a year. Whether or not the story in an OEL manga is good or not is not the point. The point is, why call it "manga" when it isn't?
It's shallow. Like people who only appreciate French wines, and will prefer a shitty French wine over a gold-medal winning wine from Napa Valley in California.
I agree that someone who chooses crappy French wine over good Napa Valley wine is shallow. Labeling American graphic novels as manga is exactly like slapping French labels on Napa Valley wines. Why can't the work stand on it's own merits? Why must we put a foreign label on it to try and give it a fake authenticity?
Personally, I don't like poseurs and snobs.
Neither do I, Tony. I am not sure why you included that last line.
MMM wrote:I have picked up "manga" that turned out to be written, drawn and published in America, and I did feel cheated. I don't think that makes me crazy.
If it has a good story what does it matter if the artist was inspired by a Japanese-style of comic-drawing or not? And if it's a crap story, just being from Japan wouldn't make it any better.
I agree. There is nothing wrong with being inspired by manga or manwha or Frank Miller or whatever. But just because you are inspired by something doesn't mean your work IS that thing. The word "manga" is commercially viable right now, so some publishers like to slap the label on everything they can. See The Manga Bible
? It's simply an illustrated version of the Bible that isn't even inspired by manga (the artist is from the U.K.). The meaning of the word has been diluted so much, I bet we'll be able to buy manga chewing gum here pretty soon.
But in the cases I was thinking of, the stories were inferior, which isn't the point. There is a lot of bad manga that gets translated into English, too. My point is, at least it is labeled properly.
Why get so worked up about manga anyway? It's not as though it's some deep meaningful art form. Although there are definitely some notable exceptions,most of it's just harmless escapist daydreaming.
I am not worked up. This is a discussion board, and we are discussing. I think manga can be a very deep and meaning art form and there are more than a few notable exceptions. Same with American comics, movies, novels and other works of fiction. A lot of it is escapist fluff, but there are always the occasional precious gems.
MMM wrote:Like I said above, rarely are American comics translated and published in Japan. Her point was that in Japanese 漫画 includes not only comics from Japan, but all over the world, and my point was, even if that is true, if you as 10 Japanese people to name 10 manga, you are going to hear the names of 100 manga from Japan. When Japanese people think "漫画" they aren't thinking Superman and Wonder Woman.
Well, in pretty much any country foreign comics are a pretty specialized taste. Maybe Japanese people would think of Doraemon or Tensai Bakabon before they'd think of Superman and Wonder Woman, but if they saw those comics they'd certainly call them 漫画.
I am not disagreeing with you there. And Manga is a specialized taste, but it is a taste that has grown by leaps and bounds across the world. There is a growing group of readers with a real passion for Japan and Japanese comics. It doesn't surprise me people want to be a part of it in every way they can. On the other hand, I believe labeling something American as manga when manga is defined in English as "comics from Japan" is misleading.
Either we eliminate the word "comics" and call ALL comics "manga" like they do in Japan, or we use the Japanese word for Japanese comics, the Korean word for Korean comics and the English word for domestic ones.