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JLPT 2 2008/2009

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Re: JLPT 2 2008/2009

Postby kgb4life » Mon 07.28.2008 5:33 pm

Hey, I am completely for forming a JLPT 2 study group! If anybody sees the *NEW* JLPT 2 group blog above this one, that is where I have posted some details. I want to start a group on Skype, so if anybody likes the idea, please let me know. I think if we unite, we can achieve much more and learn from each other!
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09.~に対して と 11.~にとって(は)

Postby ss » Wed 07.30.2008 3:50 am

Kgb4life, welcome to TJP.

In full Japanese version http://www014.upp.so-net.ne.jp/nbunka/0311ga.htm


----
Memo: Page 1 updated
Last edited by ss on Fri 08.01.2008 11:01 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: JLPT 2 2008/2009

Postby Txkun » Wed 07.30.2008 2:54 pm

Welcome back from the trip SSsan! Did you enjoy it?

Yes, sometimes romaji is not clear. And there are some sources use "oo" instead of "ou".
But its wasn't kgb4life-san that wrote these samples. Maybe you didn't spot the link (you had a bit of jet lag, didn't you?). :D
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Re: JLPT 2 2008/2009

Postby ss » Wed 07.30.2008 6:16 pm

>>>> (you had a bit of jet lag, didn't you?). :D

あららら。。。。。Txkun, I...... I think so!!! :oops:
I didn't even notice the link there!!! I really shouldn't post when my head was stooopidly blank!
Thanks for helping out there, appreciate your kindness.
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42. ~まい・~まいか

Postby ss » Fri 10.03.2008 2:17 pm

I'm reviewing grammar point 42 and don't quiet understand the note below. (Please turn to page 24 完全マスター)
Does this まい act like ない?

mai 1
mai 2
mai 4

>> 注意:主語は 「わたし」。三人称の時は、「~まいと思っているらしい/~まいと思っているようだ」などを使う。


Thank you.
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Re: 42. ~まい・~まいか

Postby katafei » Fri 10.03.2008 4:14 pm

SS wrote:I'm reviewing grammar point 42 and don't quiet understand the note below. (Please turn to page 24 完全マスター)
Does this まい act like ない?

mai 1
mai 2
mai 4

>> 注意:主語は 「わたし」。三人称の時は、「~まいと思っているらしい/~まいと思っているようだ」などを使う。


Thank you.

You don't understand the note, or the use of 'mai'?

There is something of 'should I or should I not' in mai. The same goes for the other versions, it all reflects the opinion or doubt of the speaker, 主語は 「わたし」。。。

oooh, you're talking about a certain sentence in your textbook, aren't you....?


anyway, this is in Jgram:
"The volition of someone other than the speaker can be expressed by まい, as in example #6093. Note that と思う is used to express the volition of someone other than the speaker."
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Re: JLPT 2 2008/2009

Postby NocturnalOcean » Fri 10.03.2008 6:10 pm

まい is also very often equal to ないだろう。
失敗は成功の元
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Re: JLPT 2 2008/2009

Postby ss » Fri 10.03.2008 9:43 pm

Thank you for taking the time to reply, Katafei and NocturnalOcean *san.

The book gives 2 meaning 意味 of ~mai
A. ~ないだろう(否定の推量を表す)

B.  ~絶対~するのをやめよう(否定の意志を表す)← It expresses strong will and determination (will not do something, definitely) Am I right?

① こんなまずいレストランへは二度と来るまい。
I will not come to such lousy restaurant again.

③ 彼は何も言うまいと思っているらしい。
He seems to think he will not say anything. (?)
He feels that he will not want to say anything. (?)

Okay with example 1.
As for 2, am I right to think, since I'm talking about a third person, to soften the tone, I would add と思う after まい?
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Re: 42. ~まい・~まいか

Postby coco » Sat 10.04.2008 12:43 am

SS wrote:I'm reviewing grammar point 42 and don't quiet understand the note below. (Please turn to page 24 完全マスター)
>> 注意:主語は 「わたし」。三人称の時は、「~まいと思っているらしい/~まいと思っているようだ」などを使う。

You may well get confused. I don't think this note is a clear explanation.

B-①
こんなまずいレストランへは二度と来るまい。

I will not come to this tasteless restaurant anymore. (?)
( Both こんな and 来る show the speaker is still at or around the restaurant. If the speaker is far from the restaurant, the sentence would be あんなまずいレストランには二度と行く まい. )

As you see, this is a 否定の意志を表す usage("B" usage).
The speaker decided not to visit the restaurant again.

How about the following sentences?

B-①-2
彼はこんなにまずいレストランには二度と来るまい
I don’t think he will come to this terrible restaurant again. (?)

This is a 否定の推量を表す usage( "A" usage). The speaker is inferring someone's feelings. The speaker has not mentioned neither his own volition nor someone's volition.

You can take this as 彼はこんなにまずいレストランには二度と来ないだろう

If you want to express someone's determination with negative connotation( "B" usage), you have to use ~まいと思っている [ らしい/ようだ ]. This is what the note you quoted says, I think.

B-①-3
彼はこんなにまずいレストランへは二度と来るまいと思っている [ようだ / らしい]。
It seems that he decided to not come to this terrible restaurant again. (?)

B-③
彼は何も言うまいと思っているらしい。

It seems that he decided to tell nothing. (?)
It seems that he won't tell anything . (?)

If you drop と思っているらしい from this sentence, the まい would become 否定の推量("A") usage. 

彼は何も言うまい。=彼は何も言わないだろう
I don't think he will tell something. (?)
I think that he will say nothing. (?)
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Re: JLPT 2 2008/2009

Postby ss » Sat 10.04.2008 2:35 am

Thank you very much Coco-san. I'm getting a better grip on both usages.

I was also thinking about this too ---- 彼はこんなにまずいレストランには二度と来るまい。
So, now, I understand that in A) ~ないだろう(否定の推量を表す), we have
1) 彼はこんなにまずいレストランには二度と来るまい。
I don’t think he will come to this terrible restaurant again.
2) 彼は何も言うまい。
I don't think he will say anything.

If you want to express someone's determination with negative connotation( "B" usage), you have to use ~まいと思っている [ らしい/ようだ ]. This is what the note you quoted says, I think.

So, in this case, adding pronoun in a sentence is essential, since we are talking about 三人称の時は (am I right?)
For example,

日本へ行こうか、行くまいか、迷っている。
I'm hesitating whether to (I can't make up my mind as) to go to Japan or not.
He/she/they/Tanaka san etc

彼は日本へ行こうか、行くまいか、迷っていると思う/思っているらしい。。
I think he is hesitating as to go to Japan or not. (?)
It seems like he is confused or he can't decide whether to go to Japan or not. (?)


Thanks again.
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Re: まい/まいか, かねる

Postby coco » Sat 10.04.2008 12:20 pm

SS wrote:For example,

日本へ行こうか、行くまいか、迷っている。
I'm hesitating whether to (I can't make up my mind as) to go to Japan or not.

Yes, this is correct.

彼は日本へ行こうか、行くまいか、迷っていると思う。
I think he is hesitating as to go to Japan or not. (?)

Yes, this one is correct.
But please note. 行こうか行くまいか( whether or not someone wants to do something ) form is different from "B" usage.  行こうか 行くまいか 迷っている is not 絶対に行くのをやめよう (=行くまい) usage because the situation someone is still hesitating to do something means she haven't made her decision yet. 

Let's think about 行こうか行くまいか examples.   

彼は日本へ行こうか、行くまいか、迷っている。
In this context, you can use 決めかねている instead of 迷っている.
( Please look at page 94, "158" in the textbook. Group10 in your classification in this thread.)

彼は日本へ行こうか行くまいか[迷っている/決めかねて]いる。
He can't make up his mind as to whether or not to go to Japan. (?)
He is wavering between going to Japan or not going. (?)

彼は日本へ行こうか行くまいか [決めかねて/迷って]いると思う。
I think he is torn between going to Japan and not going.(?)

彼は日本へ行こうか行くまいか[決めかねて/迷って]いるらしい。
He seems to be waving between going to Japan and not going. (?)

田中さんは、ケンが日本に行こうか行くまいか[決めかねて/迷って]いると思っている。
Tanaka-san thinks Ken is hesitating whether or not to go to Japan. (?)

SS wrote:So, in this case, adding pronoun in a sentence is essential

Yes, you are right.
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Re: JLPT 2 2008/2009

Postby ss » Sun 10.05.2008 10:32 am

Coco-san,
Once again, thank you very much for your explanation and also some other example sentences. Example sentences are the most important thing for me, because they show how to use words in correct ways.

>>>> ( Please look at page 94, "158" in the textbook. Group10 in your classification in this thread.)

158 ~ かねる 
かねる has several meanings like "to serve", to be unable", "to hesitate to", to be beyond one's ability", "cannot" .
I will get back to this one later. Thanks again.
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Re: まい、~かねる

Postby coco » Mon 10.06.2008 4:22 am

つかない英語で失礼しました。お役に立てたならなによりです。 :)

「~まい」に関してはPaul さんのこの説明が参考になると思いますので、他の方のためにも引用しておきます。

paul_b wrote:Yup. まい is an old form, still seen in some common phrases like that one. The meaning is negative-violition/intention/will (e.g. to have the intention of not doing something) or negative-probability (something will probably not happen, or will naturally not happen).


「~かねる」についてはこのトピックもご覧ください。
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Re: JLPT 2 2008/2009

Postby ss » Mon 10.06.2008 4:43 am

いいえ,だいじょうぶです。わかりました、いつもどうもありがとう。
Some books also indicate that ~mai is rarely used in modern day.
Once gain, as always, thank you for the information. :P
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Re: JLPT 2 2008/2009

Postby caroline » Mon 10.06.2008 1:19 pm

Hi, I've been quite out of touch... life is unpredictable.

But one thing I can do for you, SS san, other than to wish you my best, is to post some more example sentences of まい since you find such sentences useful, and I happen to have some of them around.
I'll try to translate them, but I'm afraid I will need correcting.

1) この事件は複雑だから、そう簡単に解決するまい。
This problem is complex, so it won't probably be solved esasily.

2) 彼は人をだまして町を出て行ったのだから、二度とここへ戻ることはあるまい。
He tricked people, left town and went away, so he won't probably come back here.

3) 不況、不況というがこれが普通の状態なのではあるまいか。
Recession, it's called recession, but as it is the usual condition, (I think) it's probably not that.
(This one, I'm not sure what the correct translation is, but I think it does refer to the 10 years fo "recession" in Japan...)

4) 田中さんはそう言うけれども、必ずしもそうとは言い切れないのではあるまい。
Mr Tanaka says that, but it is probably not the case that he would declare such a thing for sure.
Oh, this one, I think I'm wrong, mainly because I'm not sure of the construction with 必ずしも, and not very much of the rest....

Go on with your good work, then.
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