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内 vs. 中

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内 vs. 中

Postby mandolin » Fri 10.28.2005 1:46 pm

What is the difference between 内 and 中.

I know that 中 can also be used for 'middle' while 内 cannot. So I'm looking more for usage info related to the meaning 'inside'.

Aの中にBです。

This means B is inside of A, yes? Can 内 be used there instead? Why, or why not?
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RE: 内 vs. 中

Postby roosh » Sat 10.29.2005 9:49 am

内[[ inside]]
中mean [[middle, in between, in the 'area'?]]
i think it depands on the subject you mention.
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RE: 内 vs. 中

Postby roosh » Sat 10.29.2005 9:50 am

内[[ inside]]
中[[middle, in between, in the 'area'?]]
i think it depands on the subject you mention.
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RE: 内 vs. 中

Postby roosh » Sat 10.29.2005 9:52 am

oops...i don't mean to repose this thing...sorry
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RE: 内 vs. 中

Postby mandolin » Sat 10.29.2005 12:48 pm

Thanks for trying to give me a reply... but I said I already knew that 'naka' can also mean middle. It can mean 'inside' as well, as in my example. I was wondering about usage in relation to that...
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RE: 内 vs. 中

Postby InsanityRanch » Sat 10.29.2005 5:00 pm

This is actually a very hard question. And I'll say up front I don't know the answer. I was hoping one of our Japanese guests would take it up.

But today I will at least make a stab at it.

I went to the kokugo to look, and this is what I found that seems relevant. (As opposed to irrelevant but fascinating information such as that 中is used to refer to a particular red light district in Tokyo!!!)

中:
1 囲い・仕切りの内側。内部。「列車のーー」
The area inside a fence or partition. (The interior of a train.)

内:
1 「内側の」の意。「ーー出血」
Interior, internal.

One difference is that 中 in this definition seems to be a noun while 内 seems to be an adjective.

Also, it seems as if 中 may imply there is a barrier of some sort while 内 does not.

I will not swear this is the main difference, but here are two example sentences that bear this difference out:

1. 講堂(こうどう)の中で静かにしなさい。
Be quiet in the auditorium.

2. 園内でのボール遊びはおやめください。
Don't play ball in the park.

Notice that the park (probably) does not have walls.

OK, another meaning for 中:
5 二つのものの間。「二人のーーに入る」
The space between two things. "Step in between two people"

Another reibun for this meaning:
彼女は人ごみの中に消えていた。
She had vanished into the crowd.

In addition, each of these kanji is used as a suffix, and there the difference in meaning is very clear.

-内 often means "private". For example
部内でそれを検討しました。
We discussed it within the department.

-中, often pronounced juu, means "during" (a time period or an activity) or "throughout" (a physical region)
一日中 all day long
世界中 all over the world.

As I say, I hope someone more advanced will add to this, but I've tried to make at least a start at answering your very good and interesting and difficult question.

Shira
"Give me a fruitful error any time, full of seeds, bursting with its own corrections. You can keep your sterile truth for yourself." -- Vilfredo Pareto
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RE: 内 vs. 中

Postby netarou » Sat 10.29.2005 8:46 pm

加勢致そう。

Aの中にBがある。 = A内にBがある。
列車の中 = (列)車内(れっしゃない)
飛行機の中 = (飛行)機内(ひこうきない)
講堂の中 = 講堂内(こうどうない)
公園の中 = (公)園内(こうえんない)

内 (ない as a suffix) is basically literary style and 中 (なか as a noun) is a conversational style.

中 (じゅう) and 中 (ちゅう) are both suffixes but have different meanings.

体中(からだじゅう)に発疹(ほっしん)ができる。
学校中(がっこうじゅう)に声が響く(ひびく)。
公園中(こうえんじゅう)人で溢れ返る(あふれかえる)。
口中(くちじゅう)に広がる香り。 cf 口中(こうちゅう)の菌(きん)を採取(さいしゅ)する。

うーん this is really a hard question...
降参。
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RE: 内 vs. 中

Postby JoshM » Sat 10.29.2005 10:42 pm

Yup. That question really was hard and I don't even have a clue to an answer. At least, up until now. Last 2 replies were thoughtful.
I'll try to ask my teacher at Monday, if I discover any new info, I'll put it here.
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RE: 内 vs. 中

Postby InsanityRanch » Sat 10.29.2005 10:51 pm

Thanks so much, Netarou. (I will use English in this thread because I think Netarou-san's English is better than either of our Japanese.)

If I understand you, it doesn't matter if there is a barrier around a space, you can use either 中or 内. The part of speech DOES matter though -- it is 何かの中 but just 何か
内.

It occurs to me, reading this over, that perhaps there is the same sort of very slight difference as between the English words "within" and "inside". In many cases these words can be used interchangeably. Within is perhaps slightly more formal and inside more colloquial. But in a few cases you MUST use inside, for instance, you can say "the inside of a box" but not /the within of a box/.

Shira
"Give me a fruitful error any time, full of seeds, bursting with its own corrections. You can keep your sterile truth for yourself." -- Vilfredo Pareto
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RE: 内 vs. 中

Postby mandolin » Sun 10.30.2005 4:42 am

I had brought this topic to this forum from another, actually. The original poster not being myself, but she wasn't getting any help there. :)

BUT.. since I posted this here, someone responded to the OP, and his statement is as follows:

In Japanese way of thinking, 内 sets up a threthhold against 外in the sense of what is private and what is public, while 中 and 外 does not have that connotation in that 中 and 外 deal with positional description (not necessarily physical but also mental, such as 心のなか).

Thus, 内 often refers to something which is privately related to yourself, so that 内 is analogous to 家, i.e., your home. 身内 means your relatives, 内の人(also written 家の人), as used by women, means "my husband" and 内輪 would mean within the circle of yourself, i.e., private affiars.

When you try to distingusih between 内 and 中, you would have to remind yourself of this mental yardstick that Japanese uses in using 内 and 中.


Netarou: my kanji skills are not quite up to par for reading your post. :( But is what this guy says pretty close? And in the examples where you have transliterated the two kanji into the same phrase, but different styles, would they change in usage based upon this above situation?

IE... perhaps a difference between saying something is in a guest closet (public, sorta) vs. something that is in my closet where I keep all my frilly things (private)?

This is turning into more of a cultural topic than a grammatical one. :P
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RE: 内 vs. 中

Postby netarou » Mon 10.31.2005 1:53 pm

InsanityRanch wrote:
If I understand you, it doesn't matter if there is a barrier around a space, you can use either 中or 内. The part of speech DOES matter though -- it is 何かの中 but just 何か内.
Right.

mandolin wrote:
In Japanese way of thinking, 内 sets up a threthhold against 外in the sense of what is private and what is public, while 中 and 外 does not have that connotation in that 中 and 外 deal with positional description.
*snip* 以下略
This explains 中(なか) and 内(うち) as a independent word and its related words such as 内輪, 身内 and so on.
I did not notice that 内(うち) reffers to private things till I read this.

would they change in usage based upon this above situation?
No. 内(ナイ) and 中(なか) are interchangeable without relation to the situation.

中(なか) and 内(ナイ) are synonymous in meaning.

中(チュウ) means "during", "in" and "out of".
歩行中(ホコウチュウ) during walking
空気中(クウキチュウ) in the air
今週中(コンシュウチュウ) by the end of this week
五人中三人(ゴニンチュウサンニン)=五人の内三人(ゴニンのうちサンニン) three out of five people, for example.

And another 中(チュウ) appears as a part of noun such as 空中(クウチュウ), 水中(スイチュウ), 心中(シンチュウ, not シンジュウ) and so on and is synonymous with 中(なか).

As for 中(ジュウ), InsanityRanch explained this.
InsanityRanch wrote:
-中, often pronounced juu, means "during" (a time period or an activity) or "throughout" (a physical region)
一日中 all day long
世界中 all over the world.
学校中(ガッコウジュウ) the whole school, 親戚中(シンセキジュウ) all of one's relatives, etc.

辞書もご覧あれ。
内(うち) http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/search.php?MT=%C6%E2&kind=jn&mode=0&base=1&row=1

内(ナイ) http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/search.php?MT=%A4%CA%A4%A4&kind=jn&mode=0&base=1&row=6

中(なか) http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/search.php?MT=%A4%CA%A4%AB&kind=jn&kwassist=0&mode=0

中(チュウ) http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/search.php?MT=%A4%C1%A4%E5%A4%A6&kind=jn&mode=0&base=1&row=2

中(ジュウ) http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/search.php?MT=%A4%B8%A4%E5%A4%A6&kind=jn&mode=0&base=1&row=1

家族の六人中四人で今週中に家中を掃除する。
かぞくのろくにんちゅうよにんでこんしゅうちゅうにいえじゅうをそうじする。

敷地内の建物の内半分は、明日の内に内緒で取り壊す。
しきちないのたてもののうちはんぶんは、あしたのうちにないしょでとりこわす。

日本語をたくさんよんで、感覚(かんかく)をつかんでください。
ぼくはもう、あたまがいたいです。:p
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RE: 内 vs. 中

Postby mandolin » Mon 10.31.2005 7:21 pm

Thank you so very much for your replies, InsanityRanch and netarou! I think I do have a better understanding now. But it still seems a bit over my head. I've saved this for later review, too. :)

People like you make this site the fantastic resource that it is! :D
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