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English usage?

英語を勉強している方のためのフォーラムです。練習のために英語の文章を投稿してもかまわなく、英語の文法・語彙に関する質問をしてもけっこうです。

RE: English usage?

Postby AJBryant » Tue 11.01.2005 1:08 am

こんにちは。いいおてんきですね。
It will always be "Konnichi wa. Ii otenki desu ne."
It will always sound the same and mean the same thing.


Until you run into an old farmer who says "Koonichiya. Ee otenkisne?" ;)

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RE: English usage?

Postby Harisenbon » Tue 11.01.2005 1:34 am

AJBryant wrote:
Until you run into an old farmer who says "Koonichiya. Ee otenkisne?" ;)
Tony


なにゆっとるの?そりゃほうげんじゃねぇよー。おりゃらかんっぺきにっぽん語をはなしとるがやぁ!

:o

Japanese has just as many spelling and grammar mistakes as english, if not more. Throwing in Kanji, Keigo, etc makes it so easy to make mistakes.

Japanese looks simple and uniform for about 2 years of study. Then the evil starts to creep in. =)
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RE: English usage?

Postby zengargoyle » Tue 11.01.2005 2:29 am

bad english from native english speakers bugs me a bit. but not as much as in the past. nowadays with the internationalization of the internet and the ease of access one can hope that the person on the other side of the screen could be anybody anywhere in the world. it's good if their english is understandable, and a bonus if it's actually correct. i think the best thing to do (if anything) is to recast their errors into proper forms in any reply. if they are interested, they'll pick it up, if not and it bothers you, ignore them.

as for capitalization... i dislike it, especially the part about always capitalizing 'I', it seems so egotistical. a distinct lack of unnecessary caps has been part of my online persona for the past twenty years, so don't anybody hold your breath. =P

as for japanese, i like the lack of capitals for sure, but i dread the day i start to make Kanji Typos.
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RE: English usage?

Postby mandolin » Tue 11.01.2005 3:06 am

It's egotistical in itself to make an incorrect hypothesis, then act upon that hypothesis as if it were fact.

"Ego has nothing to do with the capitalization of the pronoun I. Printing and handwriting have everything to do with it. In Middle English the first person was ich--with a lower-case i. When this was shortened to i, manuscript writers and printers found it often got lost or attached to a neighboring word. So the reason for the capital I is simply to avoid confusion and error. Of course, some writers refuse to be bound by this convention. Two of our favorites, the poet e.e. cummings and Don Marquis, author of archy and mehitabel, both favored the lower-case i" (Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins 303).
Last edited by mandolin on Tue 11.01.2005 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: English usage?

Postby nprz » Tue 11.01.2005 3:08 am

You've been online for 20 years? That predates the WWW!
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RE: English usage?

Postby Sukebe Uchuujin » Tue 11.01.2005 4:33 am

Whilst I agree with some of the points made here, I do have another 3Y's worth to add:-

As a British-English speaker there are many words, 'colour' and 'color' being an example i can think of immediately, that are spelled differently by native-ENGLISH speakers and American-speakers (2 seperate languages if your asking my opinion)
Which one is 'correct'?

Also language is constantly evolving, there are many words added to the Oxford English Dictionary every year......those new words??...what? not correct last year but correct now?
Usage changes too.........(see the word 'gay' in its English usage as a prime example, 30 years ago it was fine to say, 'ah,what a beautiful day it makes me feel quite gay' , somewhat different conotations if used today)


I agree that we should make an effort but i think the spirit of the Honorable AJBryant's original post has been lost.

As for net-speak.....well it looks to me like its here to stay.

When im 'using' english on a day to day basis away from this @$£! computer screen i dont really speak the correct queen's english that much and neither does anyone.

As someone who has travelled and lived in foreign climes for the past 6 or 7 years it would seem to me that even within these hallowed pages the POINT of language itself is communication.......i.e. do you understand me and do i understand you?
Sure, in an ideal world all my I's would be capitalised if im using the personal pronoun and my punctuation would be text book correct and that is worth striving towards.......
BUT
punishing people for incorrect english usage? ???????!!!!!!!!!
a step to far i do contest......

I guess my point is that 'correct' is not such a simple concept particualrly when applied to language in this sense.


p.s. half my original post here is taken up with an apology for making the post at all and a explanation that i knew i was being a pedant but that i really just wanted to make my first post.
Mr Bryant didnt seem to be that offended and took it in the spirit in which it was intended.
Sorry to anyone who read it any other way.
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RE: English usage?

Postby zengargoyle » Tue 11.01.2005 4:51 am

mandolin wrote:
It's egotistical in itself to make an incorrect hypothesis, then act upon that hypothesis as if it were fact.


so, to make a correct hypothesis is ok but to make an incorrect hypothesis is egotistical... that's a sad, sad statement. no wonder the scientific method is going down the tubes in this country.

"Ego has nothing to do with the capitalization of the pronoun I. Printing and handwriting have everything to do with it. In Middle English the first person was ich--with a lower-case i. When this was shortened to i, manuscript writers and printers found it often got lost or attached to a neighboring word. So the reason for the capital I is simply to avoid confusion and error. Of course, some writers refuse to be bound by this convention. Two of our favorites, the poet e.e. cummings and Don Marquis, author of archy and mehitabel, both favored the lower-case i" (Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins 303).


lemme fix that:

"Ego has nothing to do with the capitalization of the pronoun I. Printing and handwriting have everything to do with it. In Middle English the first person was ich--with A lower-case i. When this was shortened to i, manuscript writers and printers found it often got lost or attached to A neighboring word. So the reason for the capital I is simply to avoid confusion and error. Of course, some writers refuse to be bound by this convention. Two of our favorites, the poet e.e. cummings and Don Marquis, author of archy and mehitabel, both favored the lower-case i" (Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins 303).


there's nothing wrong with breaking convention, if we didn't we would still be writing in all caps with no punctuation or we would make the first character of a paragraph huge. and with the fonts in use back then it's no wonder they misplaced a few "i"s.

nprz wrote:
You've been online for 20 years? That predates the WWW!


yes, i come from the days when the internet was academics, researchers and the military... email and news could take days to get from one place to another and 19.2Kbps was blazingly fast. before commercial providers, SPAM, trolls, MP3s, porn and all the other fun stuff. and it was uphill both ways in the snow. :o
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RE: English usage?

Postby Infidel » Tue 11.01.2005 6:53 am

Bulletin boards etc, predate www.
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RE: English usage?

Postby Harisenbon » Tue 11.01.2005 7:48 am

Indeed. CompuServe, america's first National BBS was founded in 1969. =)

Who would have known. =)

*ReRead*
Note that for some strange reason I subconsciously capitalize National and not america. How completely bizzare.
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RE: English usage?

Postby richvh » Tue 11.01.2005 8:24 am

In my opinion, on an international board like this, it is important to use English as properly as possible. Misspellings, improper grammar, etc. (and especially IRC speak) make it harder for those for whom English is not their primary language to understand what you are trying to say, and if they are the ones who have the answer to your question, it makes it harder for them to answer you.
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RE: English usage?

Postby AJBryant » Tue 11.01.2005 9:46 am

なにゆっとるの?そりゃほうげんじゃねぇよー。おりゃらかんっぺきにっぽん語をはなしとるがやぁ!


I am SO glad I was only drinking milk when I saw that instead of coffee. That would have hurt more. :)

As a British-English speaker there are many words, 'colour' and 'color' being an example i can think of immediately, that are spelled differently by native-ENGLISH speakers and American-speakers (2 seperate languages if your asking my opinion)
Which one is 'correct'?


Both are correct -- when in their proper milieu. For example, when I wrote for a British publisher, I used British English spelling. However, I'm pretty sure that the usage in the quote above of "seperate" and "your" aren't proper for either British or American English usage. ;)

In my opinion, on an international board like this, it is important to use English as properly as possible. Misspellings, improper grammar, etc. (and especially IRC speak) make it harder for those for whom English is not their primary language to understand what you are trying to say, and if they are the ones who have the answer to your question, it makes it harder for them to answer you.


EXACTLY!!!!

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RE: English usage?

Postby JoshM » Tue 11.01.2005 9:57 am

I remember how hard was to understand the so-called "IRC speak" years ago. My English was worse than it is now and I had many troubles trying to synthesise all those abbreviations and shortenings. Even at my primary language, I found messy the way "ppl" shorten words. It could be okay at a messenger (as MSN, Y!M) within a circle of friends with the same style of speech as you, but in a board where people all over the world will read your texts, nothing but fair to make yourself clear and intelligible or so I think.

EDIT: Also, about British English and American English, I disagree when it comes to the hypothesis of them as two separate languages. I understand the accent fluctuations, many words with different spellings, et cœtera, but if these two were different languages, they won't be clear for both speakers. Years ago, I started learning English with a British instructor, however, I had improved my English in an American English surrounding, therefore, my English is a mix of both branches and I don't feel like mixing two different languages. ;)
But I agree, in fact, they are two different branches of the same languages, as in Brazilian Portuguese, European Portuguese and African Portuguese.
Last edited by JoshM on Tue 11.01.2005 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: English usage?

Postby Kodi » Tue 11.01.2005 10:24 am

he's right ya know... The internet's only been in the public domain for about 15 years...

As for spelling mistakes. What AJBryant is saying is correct. However it's not that important. There are alot of younger people on here who aren't as good at english. In the UK you start learning foreign languages pretty early. I think my school started when I was 10 years old. If someone wants to learn a foreign language then that's fine! It doesn't matter if they aren't so good at English. It's still their choice and if they like it, and if they try hard, they can be as good as anyone else.

'taked'.......not sure thats correct english..........

I'm sorry but it's blatantly obvious that he can spell and that he did that typo because he was typing fast! I don't see your English being perfect either!

As for punishing people for not knowing english properly... What the hell?...



Why does it all matter anyway? If anyone is offended (and yes I did mean to put that word in, some people realy are annoyed by it) by 'net speak' then don't read it! And if someone is trying to learn the Japanese and can't write english properly then why does it matter?
Ayy. They are, most likely, young anyway.
Bee. They are probably happy with how they can write anyway. It's still understandable most of the time.
Sea. You don't even need to know good english to learn japanese.

Okay I've had enough of ranting on this topic already.
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RE: English usage?

Postby InsanityRanch » Tue 11.01.2005 10:25 am

I, too, was online before the internet, on a system called Socrates (or Plato? I can never remember which) starting in 1974. Dumb terminals. <shudder>
"Give me a fruitful error any time, full of seeds, bursting with its own corrections. You can keep your sterile truth for yourself." -- Vilfredo Pareto
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RE: English usage?

Postby Kodi » Tue 11.01.2005 10:36 am

lol. Well as I said. Not in 'public' domain.
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