Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - Important points when writing in Japanese

Important points when writing in Japanese

Japanese, general discussion on the language

Re: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby richvh » Tue 07.15.2008 7:48 pm

And here I thought you were using the 2 dot ellipsis ‥ which I have seen used in some manga - but I see that that, also, gets displayed at the bottom of the line.
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6450
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

Re: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby baldywilson » Sat 11.22.2008 7:32 pm

This thread is really confusing me. I'm learning Japanese using (among other things) the book, "An Introduction to Modern Japanese", and it consistently uses the kanji 今日は for "Hello" instead of こんにちは. It also uses ふで instead of 筆, えんぴつ instead of 鉛筆 and はし instead of 箸. I'm finding it almost impossible to understand when kanji is appropriate or where kana is preferred.
baldywilson
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat 11.22.2008 5:18 pm
Location: Basingstoke, Hants
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Re: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby richvh » Sat 11.22.2008 7:41 pm

It's largely up to the author, and almost anything's fair game for kanji if you use furigana... which isn't really usable on a forum like this. In the case of 今日は, because きょうは is used in a lot more contexts than こんにちは, the greeting is usually written in kana.

Once you graduate from your textbook and have more experience with native materials, you'll have a better feel for when to use kanji and when to use kana.
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6450
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

Re: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sat 11.22.2008 7:43 pm

Honestly, I think all the vituperation against 今日は on this forum is exaggerated. I see 今日は all the time from native Japanese speakers, both in handwritten things and on the Internet. It's not that rare, and I've never seen any other place besides this forum where people rail against it -- it's become sort of a shibboleth here.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby keatonatron » Sun 11.23.2008 9:08 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote:Honestly, I think all the vituperation against 今日は on this forum is exaggerated. I see 今日は all the time from native Japanese speakers, both in handwritten things and on the Internet. It's not that rare, and I've never seen any other place besides this forum where people rail against it -- it's become sort of a shibboleth here.


It's not much of a problem now, but when I started this thread 2+ site renewals ago, there were a lot of eager beginners on here (many of them having just discovered the joys of IME's henkan feature) who were over-using 今日は in confusing ways which required multiple read-throughs in order to figure out which reading they intended.

My single-sentence reply is as long as your 3-sentence quote. :lol:
User avatar
keatonatron
 
Posts: 4838
Joined: Sat 02.04.2006 3:31 am
Location: Tokyo (Via Seattle)
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Re: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby furrykef » Sun 11.23.2008 12:49 pm

Incidentally I noticed that 事 (outside of compounds) is discussed in the thread -- though not the initial post -- as one of these "shibboleth" kanji. Then the other day I started playing The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past (oh, sorry: ゼルダの伝説 神々のトライフォース) and I found that the game seems to randomly alternate between the kanji and kana forms with little apparent rhyme or reason to it -- not even something like 事 making it easier to squeeze the dialogue on one line, since there was often enough room to spell out こと. I wonder why it's supposed to be preferable to write it in kana in the first place... I'm guessing it's because it's perceived as having a "grammatical" function, but it's still really a noun rather than a particle or suffix.

- Kef
Founder of Learning Languages Through Video Games.
Also see my lang-8 journal, where you can help me practice Japanese (and Spanish, and Italian!)
User avatar
furrykef
 
Posts: 1572
Joined: Thu 01.10.2008 9:20 pm
Native language: Eggo (ワッフル語の方言)
Gender: Male

Re: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sun 11.23.2008 1:11 pm

Yeah, the general idea is that when something has a grammatical function it is written in kana, but this is often ignored, especially on the Internet. The Internet has resulted in a resurgence of formerly obsolete kanji because you don't actually have to know how to write the kanji, you just have to hit the space bar and it comes up.

Video games also tend to be pretty uncompromising in their kanji usage; furigana are unknown until very recent games, although you do get some occasional readings in kana after the kanji. It's always interesting to see video games whose manuals have furigana over every kanji, but then the game itself uses all kinds of kanji (including ones beyond the Jouyou List). I guess the makers figure that even people weak in kanji might need to look at the instruction manual but they can ignore or fumble their way through the story with no problem. Of course, more recent games often have fully voiced dialogue so that even if you don't know how to read the kanji you can just listen to what the voice actors are saying.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: RE: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby adonis0418 » Mon 12.01.2008 3:31 am


お前 - omae - informal/rude 'you'
君 - informal/intimate 'you'


Is あなた can be used for addressing to the public? like posting in this forum? what about "貴様"? From the Kanji, I will get the feeling that 貴様 is a very formal and polite one. (cos 貴 and 様 both indicate supreme level), but what is the actual condition?
User avatar
adonis0418
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri 11.21.2008 1:39 am
Location: Jiangsu, China
Native language: 中国語
Gender: Male

Re: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby becki_kanou » Mon 12.01.2008 7:25 am

貴様 looks like it is polite, but it is in fact very rude, and only used if you are very angry with someone, and usually not even then. I've never heard anyone actually use it in real life, although I've come across it in movies/anime etc.

あなた is sometimes used in advertisements, but for a place such as this forum, if you want to address everyone you can use 皆さん or 皆様. If you wish to address one person it is best to simply use that person's name +さん.
そうだ、嬉しいんだ、生きる喜び!
例え胸の傷が痛んでも。
User avatar
becki_kanou
 
Posts: 3402
Joined: Sat 04.19.2008 10:09 pm
Location: Hyogo, Japan
Skype chat: yes_becki
Native language: U.S. English, 米語
Gender: Female

Re: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby two_heads_talking » Mon 12.01.2008 9:51 am

becki_kanou wrote:貴様 looks like it is polite, but it is in fact very rude, and only used if you are very angry with someone, and usually not even then. I've never heard anyone actually use it in real life, although I've come across it in movies/anime etc..


In fact 貴様 used to be a very polite term, but after the samurai were "dissolved" it became a rather insulting term. Think of the worst possible word you could call a person and 貴様 is the same thing. In my experience with the military, I only ever heard it used once and it was during a byakkotai ceremony around the Auizuwakamatsu area.
User avatar
two_heads_talking
 
Posts: 4137
Joined: Thu 04.06.2006 11:03 am
Native language: English

Re: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby keatonatron » Mon 12.01.2008 9:59 am

becki_kanou wrote:貴様 looks like it is polite, but it is in fact very rude


Yeah.... I would probably translate it as f**ker.

Definitely not something you want to call your boss or your fiance's father. :oops:
User avatar
keatonatron
 
Posts: 4838
Joined: Sat 02.04.2006 3:31 am
Location: Tokyo (Via Seattle)
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Re: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 12.01.2008 10:30 am

becki_kanou wrote:貴様 looks like it is polite, but it is in fact very rude, and only used if you are very angry with someone, and usually not even then. I've never heard anyone actually use it in real life,


I heard some of the male middle school students use it with their friends, but that's it.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby two_heads_talking » Mon 12.01.2008 1:48 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
becki_kanou wrote:貴様 looks like it is polite, but it is in fact very rude, and only used if you are very angry with someone, and usually not even then. I've never heard anyone actually use it in real life,


I heard some of the male middle school students use it with their friends, but that's it.
I'd equate that to using racial slurs with your friends.. Ok with your friends consent, but use it anywhere else and get your face punched in.. :mrgreen:
User avatar
two_heads_talking
 
Posts: 4137
Joined: Thu 04.06.2006 11:03 am
Native language: English

Re: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby adonis0418 » Mon 12.01.2008 11:22 pm

becki_kanou wrote:貴様 looks like it is polite, but it is in fact very rude, and only used if you are very angry with someone, and usually not even then. I've never heard anyone actually use it in real life, although I've come across it in movies/anime etc.

あなた is sometimes used in advertisements, but for a place such as this forum, if you want to address everyone you can use 皆さん or 皆様. If you wish to address one person it is best to simply use that person's name +さん.

Thank you very much and others replying for this question, 皆様、どうもありがとうございます。 :D
User avatar
adonis0418
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri 11.21.2008 1:39 am
Location: Jiangsu, China
Native language: 中国語
Gender: Male

Re: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby adonis0418 » Tue 12.02.2008 9:06 pm

I have got some other problems, when talking with Japanese guys, sometimes they use "は-" with descending tone instead of "はい". I am wondering whether this is accptable and polite in talking with acquaintances? Cos it sounds a little bit informal and impolite. and similarly, some people say ねい instead of ない. Is this simply a dialect? preferrence? or have some pragmatic indications? I know some gangsters and teenagers like to speak Japanese with their tongues retroflexed (like some words in Spainish and Italian) to show rudeness or strength, but what about the problem I have metioned here? Thanks very much.
User avatar
adonis0418
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri 11.21.2008 1:39 am
Location: Jiangsu, China
Native language: 中国語
Gender: Male

PreviousNext

Return to Japanese General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests