Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - IMPORTANT: Do you have Japanese fonts installed?

IMPORTANT: Do you have Japanese fonts installed?

Have a textbook or grammar book that you find particularly helpful? What about a learning tip to share with others?

Do you have Japanese fonts installed on your computer?

yes
22
96%
no
1
4%
 
Total votes : 23

IMPORTANT: Do you have Japanese fonts installed?

Postby kayuu » Tue 12.02.2008 10:00 am

For my final year computer science project I am writing a simple Japanese language tutorial system. I need to collect some data to justify my decisions. So I'm here now asking you quite simply, do you have Japanese fonts installed on the computer you would use to study Japanese? In other words, does the following appear correctly: 日本語です。

I need to collect as many answers as possible by Friday 5th December. I will leave the poll running after that time, just in case other people may find the data useful.

Thanks for your help. :)
User avatar
kayuu
 
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon 06.11.2007 5:38 pm
Location: ロンドン、イギリス
Native language: 英語
Gender: Female

Re: IMPORTANT: Do you have Japanese fonts installed?

Postby Sairana » Tue 12.02.2008 10:12 am

What decisions do you need to justify with this poll? Is it going to be a web-based application?

You could always do it in flash, then your users don't need it installed. :P
Sairana
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed 02.27.2008 11:54 pm
Native language: (US) English
Gender: Female

Re: IMPORTANT: Do you have Japanese fonts installed?

Postby kayuu » Tue 12.02.2008 10:20 am

Ah, no, I would never do anything like that in Flash. That would mean the users would need Flash installed, and it's totally not accessible. Eugh. I hate Flash. It's the evil of the internet. >_<; There's a million and one reasons to never use Flash for anything except applications that genuinely warrant it (games, videos, etc.) but it's a bit offtopic so I won't go into it here.

Basically, yeah, I want to make the assumption that anyone wishing to study Japanese would already have Japanese fonts installed on their computer so a work-around isn't necessary from the start but could be a later addition i.e. outside the scope of my project (though if it was necessary, my solution would be to do dynamic image replacement).
User avatar
kayuu
 
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon 06.11.2007 5:38 pm
Location: ロンドン、イギリス
Native language: 英語
Gender: Female

Re: IMPORTANT: Do you have Japanese fonts installed?

Postby richvh » Tue 12.02.2008 10:42 am

Most of the regular participants here have been studying Japanese long enough that, as a matter of course, they already have Japanese fonts installed. However, newbies often don't. I don't think you'll get a representative sample here.

Perhaps you could include a free font from this list in your project?
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

Re: IMPORTANT: Do you have Japanese fonts installed?

Postby Sairana » Tue 12.02.2008 10:57 am

richvh wrote:I don't think you'll get a representative sample here.



My thoughts exactly, and why I suggested flash. While I hate flash advertisements, it definitely has its uses, particularly from the perspective of wanting people to see things the way you designed them, and not limited by what each user has specifically installed on their machine.

The other option is to do as Rich suggests and include a downloadable font, and/or including a section on your project that teaches people how to install the IME on various platforms. I think MACs install it native to the OS... but not sure on that.
Sairana
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed 02.27.2008 11:54 pm
Native language: (US) English
Gender: Female

Re: IMPORTANT: Do you have Japanese fonts installed?

Postby kayuu » Tue 12.02.2008 12:11 pm

richvh wrote:Most of the regular participants here have been studying Japanese long enough that, as a matter of course, they already have Japanese fonts installed. However, newbies often don't. I don't think you'll get a representative sample here.

Perhaps you could include a free font from this list in your project?


I am aiming at people who are already Japanese language students (it's not simple as in basic, it's simple as in functionality - it's aimed at people who have been studying for at least a year), who, like you said, as a matter of course, already have Japanese fonts installed. The aim of the poll is to conclude that yes, people who have been studying Japanese for a year, as a matter of course, have Japanese fonts installed. I think this is the perfect place to gain an appropriate sample as users here are the same kind of users that I would be expecting to utilise my system.

As for providing a free font, as far as I know, it doesn't make any difference if the capability for viewing Japanese language isn't enabled. That's the issue. Maybe I shouldn't have phrased it 'do you have Japanese fonts installed' but rather 'is Japanese script viewing capability enabled' - but that makes it sound complicated to the less computer savvy.

My thoughts exactly, and why I suggested flash. While I hate flash advertisements, it definitely has its uses, particularly from the perspective of wanting people to see things the way you designed them, and not limited by what each user has specifically installed on their machine.


Flash would kill copy and paste capabilities (dynamically generating images wouldn't, given the alt tags). Flash is not accessible (blind people would not be able to use it, screen readers would not be able to read the text, people who do not have Flash plugins installed would not be able to use it, people with decreased motor ability would not be able to use it because it relies heavily on clicking with a mouse). Flash would not allow me to use the NLTK available for Python (a library vital to the success of my project). The interface is not the main focus of my project. Flash would not allow me to implement the programmed features that I intend to implement, because Flash isn't a programming tool. Programming is the main focus of this project. Flash also costs a lot of money to obtain a copy of legally (to create things with it, at least). It would defeat the object of a lot of the work I'm trying to do. Those are just a few reasons why I would not use Flash. Flash simply would not satisfy my original specification - it's not appropriate. Sorry. I already have a much better solution, should I need it.

Dynamically generated images (with PHP, server-side) would allow blind users to see it (screen readers would read alt text) and copy-paste would not be broken (alt text would be copied and pasted) and it doesn't require any plugins to be installed and it would display the text exactly how the user would expect it to be displayed, as well as allowing me to program all the features I needed.

The other option is to do as Rich suggests and include a downloadable font, and/or including a section on your project that teaches people how to install the IME on various platforms. I think MACs install it native to the OS... but not sure on that.


It's not the IME that needs to be installed - IME is for Japanese text input. Only the capaibility for viewing complex scripts needs to be enabled. There will be a test page with instructions on how to enable this - I had already put this in my specification.
User avatar
kayuu
 
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon 06.11.2007 5:38 pm
Location: ロンドン、イギリス
Native language: 英語
Gender: Female

Re: IMPORTANT: Do you have Japanese fonts installed?

Postby Sairana » Tue 12.02.2008 5:49 pm

kayuu wrote:Flash would kill copy and paste capabilities

You can do one-click copy with flash.

screen readers would not be able to read the text

True, I won't dispute this one. But I -am- curious how many screen readers can actually read both English and Japanese text. I could only find one that claimed to do both, but other elements of the program cast doubt on its ability to actually read Japanese with any accuracy (IE, I don't think the developers have any experience with Japanese at all).

people who do not have Flash plugins installed would not be able to use it

I would take a bet that more people have Flash installed than have Japanese fonts enabled.

people with decreased motor ability would not be able to use it because it relies heavily on clicking with a mouse

Only if you program it to. Tabbing and keyboard advancement is easy.

Those are just a few reasons why I would not use Flash. Flash simply would not satisfy my original specification - it's not appropriate. Sorry.

No need to apologize. I don't work for Adobe or anything. I just don't see why you have to go all hostile just because I brought it up. Flash can be used in many ways to increase accessibility rather than hamper it. I realize it doesn't fit your course requirement.... though I didn't know it at the time.
Sairana
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed 02.27.2008 11:54 pm
Native language: (US) English
Gender: Female

Re: IMPORTANT: Do you have Japanese fonts installed?

Postby keatonatron » Wed 12.03.2008 8:46 am

I would take a bet that more people have Flash installed than have Japanese fonts enabled.


If you go to a page requiring Flash and you don't have it, a window will pop up telling you what you need and where to get it.

If you go to a page requiring Japanese and you don't have it, it will just appear as jibberish.
User avatar
keatonatron
 
Posts: 4838
Joined: Sat 02.04.2006 3:31 am
Location: Tokyo (Via Seattle)
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Re: IMPORTANT: Do you have Japanese fonts installed?

Postby kayuu » Wed 12.03.2008 11:49 am

keatonatron wrote:
I would take a bet that more people have Flash installed than have Japanese fonts enabled.


If you go to a page requiring Flash and you don't have it, a window will pop up telling you what you need and where to get it.

If you go to a page requiring Japanese and you don't have it, it will just appear as jibberish.


Some browsers don't support Flash at all, and it won't give you a pop-up. Those are the kinds of browsers that mainly blind people may choose to use, but I know lots of people who still primarily use CLI on Unix systems with text only browsers that would display Japanese fonts but not Flash. ;) Also, when I was at my previous college, Flash was not installed on the machines there (as it's a security risk) and there was no way to install it. Programs like that often can't be installed if you don't have sufficient priveleges. People may choose not to install Flash (I currently don't have it installed on my laptop) because of the security risk/irritation factor. I absolutely abhor Flash dependant websites. It is unnecessary when you can use a more standard solution.

My solution would allow people without Flash OR Japanese scripts enabled to view it. The point is, time constraints mean that I would like to be able to gather enough data to make a sensible assumption about the number of Japanese students who have fonts installed so that I don't have to spend an extra day or two on my project just trying to make the fonts appear correctly for those who don't have them enabled; the deadlines are very, very tight and there is much more important programming work to be doing that I shouldn't have to focus on creating dynamic image scripts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_ ... ity_issues

In the UK (where I live) you can sue an organisation whose website was built entirely with inaccessible Flash without providing an alternative, as it's against the disability discrimination act. Lots of resources on accessibility here:

http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/pu ... urces.hcsp

Whilst Adobe has been making efforts to promote Flash's accessibility, it is not entirely accessible, and it still is not appropriate for this particular project - and it never will be, unless I want to fail my degree. End of discussion.
User avatar
kayuu
 
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon 06.11.2007 5:38 pm
Location: ロンドン、イギリス
Native language: 英語
Gender: Female

Re: IMPORTANT: Do you have Japanese fonts installed?

Postby two_heads_talking » Wed 12.03.2008 11:58 am

just another case of you can't please all the people all the time..
User avatar
two_heads_talking
 
Posts: 4137
Joined: Thu 04.06.2006 11:03 am
Native language: English

Re: IMPORTANT: Do you have Japanese fonts installed?

Postby clay » Wed 12.03.2008 1:29 pm

In the UK (where I live) you can sue an organisation whose website was built entirely with inaccessible Flash without providing an alternative, as it's against the disability discrimination act.


That's terrible. Big Brother is watching? I'm all for individuals helping the disabled, but that is just... terrible.
TheJapanShop.com- Japanese language learning materials
Checkout our iPhone apps: TheJapanesePage.com/iPhone
User avatar
clay
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri 01.21.2005 9:39 am
Location: Florida

Re: IMPORTANT: Do you have Japanese fonts installed?

Postby two_heads_talking » Wed 12.03.2008 2:03 pm

clay wrote:
In the UK (where I live) you can sue an organisation whose website was built entirely with inaccessible Flash without providing an alternative, as it's against the disability discrimination act.


That's terrible. Big Brother is watching? I'm all for individuals helping the disabled, but that is just... terrible.



Wow, I never realized that being computer illiterate was the same as being disabled.. In that case, I need to see my disability officer about some compensation. :mrgreen: :wink:
User avatar
two_heads_talking
 
Posts: 4137
Joined: Thu 04.06.2006 11:03 am
Native language: English

Re: IMPORTANT: Do you have Japanese fonts installed?

Postby kayuu » Wed 12.03.2008 2:37 pm

clay wrote:
In the UK (where I live) you can sue an organisation whose website was built entirely with inaccessible Flash without providing an alternative, as it's against the disability discrimination act.


That's terrible. Big Brother is watching? I'm all for individuals helping the disabled, but that is just... terrible.


One pub here refused access to any disabled persons because they couldn't conform to the disability discrimination act and could have potentially been sued if they had tried to provide a service to them and failed somehow.

two_heads_talking wrote:Wow, I never realized that being computer illiterate was the same as being disabled.. In that case, I need to see my disability officer about some compensation. :mrgreen: :wink:


It's not about computer illiteracy. Where's that mentioned? :P

Imagine this: you're blind. You want to find out some important information from a website - for example, from the government or academic sector or from a particular business. You can use a computer just fine, but obviously you can't physically see the screen. There's a solution; you have a program that reads text from websites. You might even have a piece of hardware that converts written text into braille. Only it doesn't matter - because the website you're trying to access only displays images, or, more relevant to this discussion, a Flash animation. There's text - but your software has no idea how to read it, because all it sees is pixels. You'd need a form of artificial intelligence to conquer this obstacle (for example: character recognition on a grand scale) none of which has been properly developed yet. This isn't the fault of the accessibility software/hardware developer - it's the fault of the website developer for not considering that not everyone can see images, because not everyone has sight. So if your website depends fully on Flash/images in order to be readable it's inaccessible to the blind, and if it's information that a blind person needs but you can't provide them with at least an alternative method to obtain it, it's classed as disability discrimination. The same goes for a website that requires mouse navigation - some people can't use a mouse (multiple sclerosis, RSI, other physical handicap etc.)

It reflects in other areas of society - high street stores here are pushed to install step-free access for wheelchair users and trains have luminous handrails and braille 'door open' buttons for the blind/partially sighted.

It's all good and well to say "I don't care about the disabled people who want to use my service, it's tough titty" but that's not exactly working to maximise your target audience/profit, is it? ;)
User avatar
kayuu
 
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon 06.11.2007 5:38 pm
Location: ロンドン、イギリス
Native language: 英語
Gender: Female

Re: IMPORTANT: Do you have Japanese fonts installed?

Postby richvh » Wed 12.03.2008 2:53 pm

It's all good and well to say "I don't care about the disabled people who want to use my service, it's tough titty" but that's not exactly working to maximise your target audience/profit, is it?


Maximizing your target audience and maximizing your profit are too different things. If the effort to accommodate a marginal segment of your audience is costly enough, doing the one may actually decrease the other.
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

Re: IMPORTANT: Do you have Japanese fonts installed?

Postby kayuu » Wed 12.03.2008 3:13 pm

richvh wrote:
It's all good and well to say "I don't care about the disabled people who want to use my service, it's tough titty" but that's not exactly working to maximise your target audience/profit, is it?


Maximizing your target audience and maximizing your profit are too different things. If the effort to accommodate a marginal segment of your audience is costly enough, doing the one may actually decrease the other.


You're right, but it can also be the other way round. Depends on the situation. Certainly for government and academic sector where you're trying to maximise the target audience to include all of the country's population, accessibility is important.

Thankfully the entire country isn't my target audience. Which is why I'm looking to avoid implementing a solution at all for the time being, given that the majority of my target audience isn't going to warrant it and doing so anyway would cost time and thus money. Even if a significant percentage of my target audience didn't have fonts installed, my solution of dynamic image replacement is much more cost and time effective than creating a Flash based website. ;)
User avatar
kayuu
 
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon 06.11.2007 5:38 pm
Location: ロンドン、イギリス
Native language: 英語
Gender: Female

Next

Return to Learning Materials Reviews & Language Learning tips

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

cron