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what's the difference between 処 and 所

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what's the difference between 処 and 所

Postby kentaku_sama » Mon 11.24.2008 7:15 pm

処 所 both have the same pronounciation, and when I look it up online,they both just say "place". Is one a verb and one a noun?
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Re: what's the difference between 処 and 所

Postby chikara » Mon 11.24.2008 7:30 pm

They are both nouns.

From EDICT;

所(P); 処 【ところ(P); とこ(所)】 (n,suf) ....

所 is a "Priority" entry, one of ~20,000 words deemed to be common in Japanese, but 処 is not.

Personally, in my limited experience, I have not seen 処 used in place of 所.

BTW, I believe it is rather ostentatious to refer to yourself as "sama" :)
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Re: what's the difference between 処 and 所

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 11.24.2008 7:31 pm

They're both the same. 処 is much rarer than 所, though.
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Re: what's the difference between 処 and 所

Postby becki_kanou » Mon 11.24.2008 8:28 pm

I've usually only seen 処 in the names of restaurants, bars and the like. 飲処 etc.
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Re: what's the difference between 処 and 所

Postby keatonatron » Mon 11.24.2008 11:45 pm

It just has to do with the "spelling" of words; some kanji combinations use 所, and some use 処. As far as I know, there are no words that can go either way.

When using the character by itself and reading it as ところ, modern Japanese always uses 所. My advice is, learn how to read, write, say, and use 所, and only learn to read and understand the meaning of 処, as you will probably never see it anywhere other than on signs for restaraunts.
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Re: what's the difference between 処 and 所

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Tue 11.25.2008 12:01 am

keatonatron wrote:It just has to do with the "spelling" of words; some kanji combinations use 所, and some use 処. As far as I know, there are no words that can go either way.


It's a little hard to tell from google hits because in many cases it's hard to say whether 処/所 was intended to be read as か or どころ. For instance, 在処 is probably ありか and 住処 is probably すみか but you never know for sure. (Not that it matters; I don't think there's any difference between ありか and ありどころ.)
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Re: what's the difference between 処 and 所

Postby two_heads_talking » Tue 11.25.2008 10:03 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote: I don't think there's any difference between ありか and ありどころ.)
As far as meaning goes, I'd think you are 100% correct. Either way it's ari place.

Although I will admit, I was trying to figure out where I'd seen 処 before. I hadn't realized until now that it was specifically restaurants that use it.. That's good to know.
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Re: what's the difference between 処 and 所

Postby mongol800 » Fri 12.05.2008 8:13 am

well, I've noticed as I am taking Japanese 120... which is Japanese Modern Literature-- we've looked at writings from Natsume Soseki and other Japanese writers... The処 is used and  所 is hardly used... however, now it's opposite...

This is my gathering. Language changes constantly... Nomu to drink is written in a different kanji... and so is wakaru to understand.

Kanji is always being not replaced... but used different.

in a dictionary:
分る
分かる
判る
解る
can all be used to mean understand...
however. we use the second one most. even with it's irregular okurigana.

Just like decentralization is spelled decentralisation look it up on blank word document.

Old English (even the British use s instead of z) Modernization uses z cause that's what we translate as the sound to be.


That's my understanding
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Re: what's the difference between 処 and 所

Postby keatonatron » Fri 12.05.2008 10:29 am

mongol800 wrote:This is my gathering. Language changes constantly... Nomu to drink is written in a different kanji... and so is wakaru to understand.

Kanji is always being not replaced... but used different.


Originally (in China) there was no real system to kanji. People would create new kanji for new words and ideas all the time. Depending on region, the kanji people used could be completely different.

Then things got even worse when kanji came to Japan; since kanji wasn't made for the Japanese language, it had to be adapted to fit. Mix that with the fact that the people using it were all figuring it out for the first time, and things totally got out of control. You could ask 20 people to write the same word, and they could very well all use a different kanji for it, simply because the pronunciation for each of those kanji sounded the same to them (and happened to fit the word they wanted to write).

Jump ahead to modern times, when people finally are literate enough and have the means to start setting standards and attempt to correct the problem. The first step was simplifying traditional Chinese characters. The next step was setting rules for which kanji mean what. In Japan, there was a huge standardization movement after world war 2; that shows you just how recent the standardization of kanji is. Now that everyone can read and we have computers programmed with the most common choices, people tend to use the same kanji as everyone else. I can assume in Souseki's day, things weren't that simple.
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Re: what's the difference between 処 and 所

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Fri 12.05.2008 10:48 am

mongol800 wrote:however. we use the second one most. even with it's irregular okurigana.


It's not irregular. 分ける and 分かる are both derived from a classical verb 分く, and the okurigana for all of those is just like the other verbs are done.
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Re: what's the difference between 処 and 所

Postby furrykef » Fri 12.05.2008 2:29 pm

I'd call it irregular. "Irregular" doesn't necessarily mean "inconsistent". In Spanish, there are simple and consistent verb patterns (for instance, vowels that shift very predictably when stressed) that nonetheless are almost invariably called irregular. The thing that those two things have in common -- that particular okurigana usage and Spanish "irregular" verbs -- is that they're non-productive. That is, they're closed-class verbs and no more verbs of that kind are likely to appear. It's not that the verbs are inconsistent, but rather that they're inconsistent with patterns that are still productive. If 分かる didn't have the history it did, it'd be spelled 分る. (Sometimes it is anyway, but never mind that. ;))

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Re: what's the difference between 処 and 所

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Fri 12.05.2008 3:42 pm

To me, irregular means unpredictable on the basis of rules or patterns. 分かる is completely predictable based on the okurigana rules, which are based in large part on historical derivation. The reason 帰る has only る as the okurigana but 変える has える is from historical derivation -- 変える comes from classical 変ふ, whereas 帰る does not derive from any underlying verb but has always been 帰る. There is no irregularity here.
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Re: what's the difference between 処 and 所

Postby furrykef » Fri 12.05.2008 5:52 pm

But the rule I follow is that okurigana for ichidan verbs begins on the penultimate kana of the dictionary form and okurigana for godan verbs begins on the ultimate kana, a rule that 分かる violates. It's obviously less consistent than your rule, but, as I don't study Classical Japanese, it's probably easier to deal with. :) 変える and 帰る are still neatly explained by it, for instance.

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Re: what's the difference between 処 and 所

Postby keatonatron » Fri 12.05.2008 10:44 pm

...I just memorize the okurigana for each word and don't mess with "rules". :?
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Re: what's the difference between 処 and 所

Postby furrykef » Sat 12.06.2008 12:16 am

You've never noticed that -eru and -iru verbs usually take two kana and -u verbs usually take one?
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