Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - Heisig, RTK Experiment

Heisig, RTK Experiment

Have a textbook or grammar book that you find particularly helpful? What about a learning tip to share with others?

Re: Heisig, RTK Experiment

Postby richvh » Sun 12.07.2008 12:39 pm

epokw wrote:
richvh wrote:それ程多くの漢字が読めるのなら、この文章を読んで分かると思います。それとも、「漢字」だけが読めて、「言葉」や「文章」が読めないのでしょうか。

Can you read so many characters, you can read and understand this sentence. Or... you can read the kanji, but cannot read the words or sentence?


Sorry, my Japanese still isn't very proficient, but I think I got the gist of your post, so I wrote down what I think you said just so you know what I'm replying to :P

To answer; I was able to read every single kanji compound in that sentence and I understood every word, just putting it together in a sentence was the hard bit, I'm not sure if it's right either :lol:

But now you make me question what 文章 means, I thought it meant writing/writing style >_>


Close, it's "I think that If you can read so many kanji, you can read and understand this sentence. Or, could it be that you can only read kanji, and not words or sentences?"

As for 文章, it can mean writing or writing style, but it can also mean sentence (or paragraph, or section...) or composition. When I introduce a chapter of ゆきの物語 on lang-8, I write 下に載せている文章は……
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

Re: Heisig, RTK Experiment

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sun 12.07.2008 12:43 pm

In other words, despite the number of kanji you've "learned", you're not actually able to read Japanese. Your testimonial will be more impressive once you accomplish that task. If you're able to say something like "I used Heisig and then within X years I could read Japanese" that's an actual statement of accomplishment. As I've said in the past many times, this is what I find to be missing from pretty much all the Heisig testimonials I've seen -- you can find countless people who have completed portions (or all) of Heisig 1 in impressive sounding time periods, but the number of people who have then gone on to learn to read Japanese does not seem to be as high.

If you want to learn to read Japanese, you have to practice reading Japanese. There's no way around that, and the longer you delay reading practice, the longer it will take you to learn to read.

But we don't need to rehash these Heisig issues again; there's a double-digit page thread (multiple ones, actually) on it.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: Heisig, RTK Experiment

Postby epokw » Sun 12.07.2008 1:02 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:In other words, despite the number of kanji you've "learned", you're not actually able to read Japanese. Your testimonial will be more impressive once you accomplish that task. If you're able to say something like "I used Heisig and then within X years I could read Japanese" that's an actual statement of accomplishment. As I've said in the past many times, this is what I find to be missing from pretty much all the Heisig testimonials I've seen -- you can find countless people who have completed portions (or all) of Heisig 1 in impressive sounding time periods, but the number of people who have then gone on to learn to read Japanese does not seem to be as high.

If you want to learn to read Japanese, you have to practice reading Japanese. There's no way around that, and the longer you delay reading practice, the longer it will take you to learn to read.

But we don't need to rehash these Heisig issues again; there's a double-digit page thread (multiple ones, actually) on it.


Did I not say I can read every kanji in the sentence? It was only my grammar that couldn't put the words together.

I'm learning through immersion, so trust me when I say I'm reading Japanese for about 6-8 hours a day. I've printed Wikipedia pages off just so I could have soemthing to read in my lunch breaks. Sadly, in my country online shopping is non-existant, so no manga for me :(

I would've been saying useless things like "Ohhh, I only 200 kanji, so I'll read this wiki page 10 years later" if it weren't for Heisig.
epokw
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun 12.07.2008 11:14 am

Re: Heisig, RTK Experiment

Postby richvh » Sun 12.07.2008 1:14 pm

Grammar's the easy part; vocabulary is the 90% of the iceberg hiding beneath the waves. Just because you can "read" the kanji doesn't mean you can either pronounce or understand the words they are used in.

You say you can "read" every kanji in what I wrote; can you re-write those sentences in either kana or romaji?
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

Re: Heisig, RTK Experiment

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sun 12.07.2008 1:23 pm

richvh wrote:Grammar's the easy part


I'm not sure I would even go this far -- getting your feet wet with grammar is not so bad, but internalizing the grammar (even the basic grammar) to the point where you can actually *read* Japanese and not decode it requires a huge amount of practice. There's a tendency among self-study beginners to think that reading an explanation of a grammar point suffices to "learn" it, but learning grammar like this is a little like learning kanji by just memorizing readings and meanings -- it gives the illusion of progress but sets the stage for eventual frustration.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: Heisig, RTK Experiment

Postby epokw » Sun 12.07.2008 1:25 pm

richvh wrote:Grammar's the easy part; vocabulary is the 90% of the iceberg hiding beneath the waves. Just because you can "read" the kanji doesn't mean you can either pronounce or understand the words they are used in.

You say you can "read" every kanji in what I wrote; can you re-write those sentences in either kana or romaji?


When I say 'read' that means I can read it (as in pronounce it) and know its general meaning. (I didn't seperately memorize kun-yomi and on-yomi in case you were wondering).

And yes, I could write it out in kana/romaji. But I probably won't be able to understand what I wrote, I have a tough time reading 100% kana :lol:

And I don't study grammar; I study and see sentences which have grammar in them, part of my immersion.
epokw
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun 12.07.2008 11:14 am

Re: Heisig, RTK Experiment

Postby richvh » Sun 12.07.2008 1:34 pm

I'm not sure I would even go this far -- getting your feet wet with grammar is not so bad, but internalizing the grammar (even the basic grammar) to the point where you can actually *read* Japanese and not decode it requires a huge amount of practice. There's a tendency among self-study beginners to think that reading an explanation of a grammar point suffices to "learn" it, but learning grammar like this is a little like learning kanji by just memorizing readings and meanings -- it gives the illusion of progress but sets the stage for eventual frustration.


It's still easier to reach a point where you have internalized most of the grammar, than to reach a point where you rarely need to look up a word.

When I say 'read' that means I can read it (as in pronounce it) and know its general meaning. (I didn't seperately memorize kun-yomi and on-yomi in case you were wondering).

And yes, I could write it out in kana/romaji. But I probably won't be able to understand what I wrote, I have a tough time reading 100% kana :lol:


Prove it. Plus you really ought to look up some grammar points; your immersion obviously hasn't served you sufficiently well to internalize an understanding of the grammar. Tae Kim's guide is free online; no purchase necessary. If you want to continue your immersion while learning grammar, try out Niwa Saburoo's grammar book instead.
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

Re: Heisig, RTK Experiment

Postby epokw » Sun 12.07.2008 1:38 pm

richvh wrote:
I'm not sure I would even go this far -- getting your feet wet with grammar is not so bad, but internalizing the grammar (even the basic grammar) to the point where you can actually *read* Japanese and not decode it requires a huge amount of practice. There's a tendency among self-study beginners to think that reading an explanation of a grammar point suffices to "learn" it, but learning grammar like this is a little like learning kanji by just memorizing readings and meanings -- it gives the illusion of progress but sets the stage for eventual frustration.


It's still easier to reach a point where you have internalized most of the grammar, than to reach a point where you rarely need to look up a word.

When I say 'read' that means I can read it (as in pronounce it) and know its general meaning. (I didn't seperately memorize kun-yomi and on-yomi in case you were wondering).

And yes, I could write it out in kana/romaji. But I probably won't be able to understand what I wrote, I have a tough time reading 100% kana :lol:


Prove it. Plus you really ought to look up some grammar points; your immersion obviously hasn't served you sufficiently well to internalize an understanding of the grammar. Tae Kim's guide is free online; no purchase necessary. If you want to continue your immersion while learning grammar, try out Niwa Saburoo's grammar book instead.


Prove it?
それ程多くの漢字が読めるのなら、この文章を読んで分かると思います。それとも、「漢字」だけが読めて、「言葉」や「文章」が読めないのでしょうか。
それ は ほど おおく の かんじ が よめる のなら、 この ぶんしょう を よんで わかる と おもいます。 それとも、 「かんじ」 だけ が よめて、 「ことば」 や 「ぶんしょう」 が よめない の でしょう か

It's hard to prove over the internet, but I read it 100% correctly when I first saw what you wrote. Spaced it so it isn't a pain in the arse to read.

Edit: And I've been to the first part or so of Tae Kim, but the problem is it's boring, and I don't like boring in my self-study. :mrgreen: I think in 2 years time, I will be fine if I read enough Japanese, just like I did with English.

Edit 2: Damn, I feel bad for stealing the TC's thread, sorrry :lol:
epokw
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun 12.07.2008 11:14 am

Re: Heisig, RTK Experiment

Postby richvh » Sun 12.07.2008 1:59 pm

Not bad, except you inserted a は between それ and ほど. Of course, the real proof of having internalized grammar is being able to compose sentences.
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

Re: Heisig, RTK Experiment

Postby nukemarine » Sun 12.07.2008 7:58 pm

The conversation again is drifting from the RTK Experiment. I'm sure there are other threads that can be used to discuss what qualifies as reading.

Dustin, are you noticing what you're doing having an impact in the Japanese you read (websites, manga, subtitles)? Experiencing tangible benefits from RTK that kept me going. For me, it was walking around town and seeing kanji that actually meant something.
nukemarine
 
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed 10.10.2007 5:33 am

Re: Heisig, RTK Experiment

Postby Dustin » Mon 12.08.2008 12:10 am

Wow, a LOT of drift happened here....

nukemarine wrote:Dustin, are you noticing what you're doing having an impact in the Japanese you read (websites, manga, subtitles)? Experiencing tangible benefits from RTK that kept me going. For me, it was walking around town and seeing kanji that actually meant something.


Well given my elementary level of Japanese, I am seeing a huge improvement in my understanding of written Kanji that I come across. I will admit that many times that I read some random stuff, I can tell what the general meaning is from the keywords presented, however there are also many times where I will come across kanji that I recognize and the meaning is not at all related to the keyword.

I also will see some kanji compounds that I will recognize the component parts, and if it is a vocab word I already knew then I will immediately recognize it, making linking the vocab to kanji compounds much easier.

Like I said, it is common to find these gems that I understand, but moreso that i see kanji that i recognize but do not understand them.

It is also rare for me to be able to instantly correlate a kanji compound with vocab I have already learnt, but it does happen :D This stresses the importance of learning vocab AND the Kanji and being able to associate them. I find it is easier to make sense of a Kanji compound after I have already learnt and understand the vocab associated with it. ( This is not always necessarily true, but so far I have found it much easier PERSONALLY to learn to write and recognize a particular kanji, and then tag a word or words to it.

Anyways, back to the ORIGINAL point of this thread, My progress on the RTK is approximately 700 to date. I am going a little slower lately due to a number of issues I am having in my personal life.
Namely I am in the process of moving back to my hometown, and have a LOT of work to do wrapping up my business before I leave the city. I have had many delays in doing so, and because of this I have developed a case of nasty bronchitis.
Bronchitis plus No time for taking days off = no study time.

Like I said earlier, I am seeing more and more Kanji I recognize around all the time which is great. I can't wait to get this finished so that I can start learning the vocabulary to attack to these characters :D
User avatar
Dustin
 
Posts: 589
Joined: Sun 07.13.2008 9:41 pm
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Re: Heisig, RTK Experiment

Postby furrykef » Mon 12.08.2008 1:30 am

In my own experience, learning new compound words with their kanji is ridiculously easy now compared to what it was before. I'm picking them up here and there without even formally studying them. I've memorized how to write 手裏剣 (shuriken) without really even trying, for instance. I just saw it, saw how it's constructed, thought, "Wow, that's cool", and now I remember it. Of course I'll still forget it if I don't practice using it a little, but it wasn't too long ago that memorizing such things so easily would have been impossible.

For that matter, I still remember how to write 波動拳 (hadōken), which I learned maybe a year ago, and the third kanji isn't even in RTK1 ;)

- Kef
Founder of Learning Languages Through Video Games.
Also see my lang-8 journal, where you can help me practice Japanese (and Spanish, and Italian!)
User avatar
furrykef
 
Posts: 1572
Joined: Thu 01.10.2008 9:20 pm
Native language: Eggo (ワッフル語の方言)
Gender: Male

Re: Heisig, RTK Experiment

Postby HarakoMeshi » Mon 12.15.2008 5:34 am

About a year ago when I was finishing RTK1 I raved on the forum about how much I thought RTK was a great help for learning kanji and Japanese in general.

A year later I still think it was a great help; it made my kanji learning much easier and (although I took breaks when my work was busy totaling almost half a year) I studied readings and vocab using about 1000 kanji in the time and my reading level advanced a great deal (though obviously still plenty more to go), and through reading my grammar and general Japanese ability improved a lot too.

So still think RTK is great, but given that I only learned to read about 1000 kanji this year but RTK1 features 2042 kanji, I now think it may have been better to start with the RTK mini list of kanji, which includes about 1000 kanji, then worked on readings and vocab, then just topping up extra kanji as needed. But for someone who has plenty of time and dedication for learning Japanese quickly, then just going through the whole of RTK in one go is probably a good idea.

Also 2001 Kanji Odyssey is highly recommended for beginner level, and Kanji in Context for intermediate. As well there was someone who released a list of KiC-like sentences called the Tanuki corpus. I don't know where they were obtained from from but they're very useful.
HarakoMeshi
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu 11.22.2007 8:46 pm

Re: Heisig, RTK Experiment

Postby richvh » Mon 12.15.2008 7:15 am

I think you mean the Tanaka corpus. It's the body of example sentences used by WWWJDIC, which were collected by a teacher named Tanaka from his students, I believe.
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

Re: Heisig, RTK Experiment

Postby HarakoMeshi » Mon 12.15.2008 7:47 am

richvh wrote:I think you mean the Tanaka corpus. It's the body of example sentences used by WWWJDIC, which were collected by a teacher named Tanaka from his students, I believe.


Actually no, it's different. At first I thought it was a typing mistake, but actually someone released a list of sentences called Tanuki corpus which is different from Tanaka corpus.

It's available in a spreadsheet here http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?jmda3ye2nmw .

The sentences in this material follow the Kanji in Context order, so I suspect they may come from the makers of KiC, only there are more than in KiC. If I had to guess, I think it's the data from the KiC software. They mysteriously appeared on the web with a liberal license.
HarakoMeshi
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu 11.22.2007 8:46 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Learning Materials Reviews & Language Learning tips

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests