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"dating rules in japan"

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Re: "dating rules in japan"

Postby becki_kanou » Thu 12.11.2008 10:53 pm

keatonatron wrote:It's my experience that simply trying to get in a girl's pants doesn't usually work too well... And if it does work well, she's most likely not "girlfriend material".


Well thanks for that piece of advice form the 50's. So a woman who's interested in pursuing a physical relationship early is "not girlfriend material" eh? What does that make the guy who tries to pursue it then? Talk about a double standard. This kind of thing is why so many people are so mentally messed about about sex and dating.
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Re: "dating rules in japan"

Postby Kurious » Fri 12.12.2008 12:27 am

OK, so you don't want things to go wrong like they did with the other girl. That's very understandable, particularly since you like this one so much. Sometimes these things happen though, and they are not necessarily anyone's fault; perhaps just cultural differences, unconscious mistakes, whatever. I'd say that if you both really like each other then I don't see this happening if you both take on a reasonable approach to building the relationship. I'd say take your time because it isn't always true that relationships need to escalate to the romantic level as fast as possible. But only you can know. It really depends on the people involved, and what do they want out of the relationship. How many people are there on this planet, over six thousand million? And each person is different. (Well, hopefully they are...) So there aren't any formulas that are guaranteed to work. In fact, trying to force the process may backfire.


uberscheisse wrote:in the end i'm going to do what feels natural and see how it pans out.

Seriously, this is probably the best idea ever. I wish you the best.
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Re: "dating rules in japan"

Postby keatonatron » Fri 12.12.2008 6:54 am

uberscheisse wrote:d-d-d-d-d-d-iiiiiiigressin', folks.


I really think there isn't much we can help you with.

People are pretty much the same everywhere. Just do whatever feels natural to you.
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Re: "dating rules in japan"

Postby uberscheisse » Fri 12.12.2008 7:30 am

keatonatron wrote:
uberscheisse wrote:d-d-d-d-d-d-iiiiiiigressin', folks.


I really think there isn't much we can help you with.

People are pretty much the same everywhere. Just do whatever feels natural to you.


Yeah, I had hoped that there was a primer on dating customs/rules that wasn't as offensive as the book I described in my OP. I inherited "Making Out in Japanese" in a stack of books from a former coworker, and after cracking it once, I'm thinking anything on paper out there is probably either totally offensive to my chivalrous sensibilities and/or outdated (as i hear MOIJ is).

Anyways, a few honest attempts at guidance/advice here. All were appreciated, thanks.
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Re: "dating rules in japan"

Postby Mike Cash » Fri 12.12.2008 8:09 am

nukemarine wrote:
My advice will always be to have "good" sex as soon as possible.


I can't begin to tell you how appalling I find that. Primarily for the reason that it is the quickest way in the world to kill objectivity, without which one can't begin to make a rational decision regarding one's best interests.

In my experience, a woman that has good sex will make exceptions for many a character flaw that would interfere with an introductory relationship.

Thanks for proving my point.
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Re: "dating rules in japan"

Postby furrykef » Fri 12.12.2008 9:09 am

I have to agree with Mike Cash on that one: even if you don't think it's immoral per se (I don't), a sexual relationship does throw objectivity out the window. I probably should listen to that advice more myself.
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Re: "dating rules in japan"

Postby two_heads_talking » Fri 12.12.2008 9:31 am

furrykef wrote:I have to agree with Mike Cash on that one: even if you don't think it's immoral per se (I don't), a sexual relationship does throw objectivity out the window. I probably should listen to that advice more myself.


I think the average person should be more worried about what traits and skills the other person has. Some people are okay with certain traits, for example, smoking or drinking, those can be things that someone might or might not want in a "life mate." You might find talking about the zodiac cool for a few weeks and then it fizzles. Perhaps a person is too controlling, etc. All of these things are hard to find out about a person if all you are worried about is the "sex." In fact by only focusing on sex, you are more willing to overlook things that a few years down the line cause the relationship to fold. If more people dated to find people they were emotionally compatible with, rather than sexually satisfied with, abot 25% of divorces would never happen.

You can also pay attention to things like how well someone handles stress, finances, difficult situations, and praise. Your prospective partner might have emotional issues that you aren't capable or willing to put up with, but because it's all sex, you never find out about it.

Anyways, I have (as is easy to see) a very conservative view of marriage, dating and sex. Perhaps, those views are one of the reasons my wife and I are still married after 18 years of marriage. And if it makes any difference, sex was the last thing we were worried about, it was however, what we looked forward to on our Honeymoon..
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Re: "dating rules in japan"

Postby nukemarine » Fri 12.12.2008 11:18 pm

We're going to have to disagree with opening a relationship up with sex then. From my experience, you usually find more out about a woman after having sex with her than before. You learn about hygiene, feelings, habits, likes and dislikes much faster. The reverse is also true, as you can't hide too much about yourself where sex is involved.

Now, remember though, my advice was to have "good sex" which is not just getting in someone's pants, nor is it a candle lit hallway leading to a bathtub. It's pleasuring the partner which is not as easy as it sounds. Granted, that's beyond the scope of this thread.

Plus, let's be honest. We're about 2 million years of evolutionary traits versus about 50 years of whatever the current mode is we're supposed to view somebody. While the OP is spending time trying to develop a mature relationship, the lady (single mother at that) may end up being seduced by another man. Now that does not mean she's a bad person. She, like every other man and woman, has a sexual drive. When that need is met by a person, as Cash points out, she can lose her objectivity. Instead of going with the OP despite his efforts, she leaves with the one that immediately satisfied her.

A woman that haves sex on the first date that generally does not is still a good woman (even those that always has sex on first dates are probably good women). Hell, that's the point of a lot of seduction techniques which is to remove many of the barriers that mentally block women from wanting to have sex, mainly the "I'll look like slut" emotion. But, women and men want to have sex. We just let our mind get in the way from stopping that. Once it's out of the picture, you'll be surprised how any relationship can go.

So yeah, I think sex helps open up a good relationship. In addition, a woman that has sex is not a slut.
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Re: "dating rules in japan"

Postby Sairana » Sat 12.13.2008 2:52 am

nukemarine wrote:From my experience, you usually find more out about a woman after having sex with her than before.


I don't doubt that. But I hope you realize how close that sounds to "try before you buy". Sounds like you have sex in order to decide if you actually like a girl.

Hell, that's the point of a lot of seduction techniques which is to remove many of the barriers that mentally block women from wanting to have sex, mainly the "I'll look like slut" emotion.


You need to read more on how women develop emotional attachments to the men they sleep with, much moreso than men develop for women on the whole. While a girl doesn't want to be labeled a slut, that's not the primary reason to resist sex. They fear the emotional blow that will be dealt if a relationship fails.

Seduction is not based around making her not feel like a slut, but convincing her that you think she is so wonderful you want to be with her forever -- without actually ever promising to be there forever. "I could fall into your eyes and never find my way out again..." has a ring of eternity to it. It is sweet, and endearing, and to the woman, hints that you are serious. Not just taking a test drive to see her hygiene and other things.

None of it really applies if the woman is completely OK with that, of course. But I wonder how much seduction would work on a girl if you told her that sex doesn't mean commitment, and you might still leave after you "get to know her better".
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Re: "dating rules in japan"

Postby Pork Chop » Sun 12.14.2008 1:35 am

Maybe my experience isn't common; but my Japanese single-mother friends are more concerned with long term stuff than just having a boyfriend or hooking up casually.

If you're just looking to hook up casually or having one of those bf/gf relationships that ultimately lead nowhere; then I'm not sure she's all that interested. You're probably better off finding someone else - either a bar girl for a fun time, or a single girl with fewer responsibilities if you just want a fun, non-serious bf/gf relationship.

If you're thinking long term as well (marriage, etc), I suggest that you relax and just let things happen - don't force anything or move faster than she tells you she's ready to move. Maybe find out if she's even looking to marry some time down the road and what type of guy she's looking for. Even if you're looking to marry, establishing communication and becoming true friends is more important in the beginning than just rushing into a committed relationship.

At the very least, that nice little surrogate family situation you've found there in a foreign country sounds charming enough; in its own right, not to want to spoil. I'd go the gentleman route, whatever you do.
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Re: "dating rules in japan"

Postby keatonatron » Sun 12.14.2008 11:09 am

becki_kanou wrote:
Well thanks for that piece of advice form the 50's. So a woman who's interested in pursuing a physical relationship early is "not girlfriend material" eh? What does that make the guy who tries to pursue it then? Talk about a double standard. This kind of thing is why so many people are so mentally messed about about sex and dating.


I just saw this.

When did I ever say that a guy who wants sex early on is a respectable chap? I feel the exact same way regardless of gender. Of course, I'm not searching for guys so it doesn't matter much, but whenever a female friend dates a guy who pushes to have sex early on, I feel really bad for her :? Especially if the relationship doesn't last very long, in which case she can't help but feel used.
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Re: "dating rules in japan"

Postby becki_kanou » Sun 12.14.2008 1:14 pm

keatonatron wrote:When did I ever say that a guy who wants sex early on is a respectable chap? I feel the exact same way regardless of gender.


OK. Fair enough.
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Re: "dating rules in japan"

Postby CajunCoder » Sat 12.20.2008 12:58 pm

Dehitay - I think you're confusing cause and effect here.

Likely, couples have the tendency to talk more as they get closer. And, contrary to popular delusion, jumping into bed with someone is not how you instantly have a closer relationship with them. It's something you do only after you have a close, intimate relationship in which you trust, love and respect each other. If those things don't come first, you're just setting yourself up for a pretty destructive/insecure relationship...

At least, that's how I always saw it. But I really don't have experience in this area, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about :P
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Re: "dating rules in japan"

Postby Dehitay » Sat 12.20.2008 1:54 pm

CajunCoder wrote:Dehitay - I think you're confusing cause and effect here.

Likely, couples have the tendency to talk more as they get closer. And, contrary to popular delusion, jumping into bed with someone is not how you instantly have a closer relationship with them. It's something you do only after you have a close, intimate relationship in which you trust, love and respect each other. If those things don't come first, you're just setting yourself up for a pretty destructive/insecure relationship...

At least, that's how I always saw it. But I really don't have experience in this area, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about :P

In the majority of people, having sex usually causes an intimate bond regardless of how close those 2 people were before the occasion. Of course there are a good number of exceptions, but it's definitely standard amongst women at least. I'll agree if either party was just in it for the sex, the relationship is pretty much headed to destruction afterwards; but if both are actually interested in a relationship, it just speeds things up.

Now if the 2 aren't compatible in the first place, then of course it will end badly. However, that's not because they had sex so early; that's because they weren't right for each other. Personally, in that case, I still think it's better that things worked out that way cause it saves some time. I would prefer jumping into things, figuring out it was a bad idea, and breaking up rather than spending a significant amount of time together, never getting anywhere, eventually realizing you're not meant for each other, and then breaking up.

If the 2 actually were compatible, then they sped right into an intimate relationship. Just because they had sex early won't destroy their relationship unless one of the 2 holds strong conservative beliefs about sex. If you have a list of criteria that you immediately find out about any girl you're interested in, this situation is actually more common.
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Re: "dating rules in japan"

Postby CajunCoder » Sat 12.20.2008 2:23 pm

By the sound of it, I suppose we have very different philosophies.

So, dating and sex, then, is something you do often in hopes of hitting upon the right person?

I wait until I know enough about the other person to be pretty sure of whether or not I'm "compatible" with them or not, so when I were to pursue a relationship, I can be patient, and allow it to develop naturally. The most rewarding things in life - whether it be building relationships with people or creating works of art, take time, and are best done with care and patience.
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