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Difference between 下る and 下がる ???

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Difference between 下る and 下がる ???

Postby kentaku_sama » Tue 12.30.2008 5:02 pm

I've first saw this in my kanji in mangaland book. 下がる (sagaru) means to descend 下る (kudaru) means to go down. Now Myself believe that (in english anyway...) to go down and to descend is about the same meaning. So if someone could clear this up for me and what each one is used for.
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Re: Difference between 下る and 下がる ???

Postby two_heads_talking » Tue 12.30.2008 5:25 pm

Hmm, are descend and go down different words? Then isn't it possible there are two different words with slightly similar meanings in Japanese too?
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Re: Difference between 下る and 下がる ???

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Tue 12.30.2008 6:01 pm

kentaku_sama wrote:I've first saw this in my kanji in mangaland book. 下がる (sagaru) means to descend 下る (kudaru) means to go down. Now Myself believe that (in english anyway...) to go down and to descend is about the same meaning. So if someone could clear this up for me and what each one is used for.


kudaru usually has the meaning of "going down" in the sense of leaving a major metropolitan place (like the capital) and going to the country, for instance. I'm not sure I've ever seen it used in modern Japanese, but it's used fairly often in classical Japanese, i.e. the famous "azuma-kudari" sections of the Ise Monogatari.

There's also 下りる(おりる), which means something similar and overlaps with 降りる, but I would need to look at a J-J dictionary to work all this out.
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Re: Difference between 下る and 下がる ???

Postby spin13 » Tue 12.30.2008 10:22 pm

kentaku_sama wrote:下がる (sagaru) means to descend 下る (kudaru) means to go down...So if someone could clear this up for me and what each one is used for.


You should probably use a dictionary.
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Re: Difference between 下る and 下がる ???

Postby keatonatron » Wed 12.31.2008 1:16 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote:kudaru usually has the meaning of "going down" in the sense of leaving a major metropolitan place (like the capital) and going to the country, for instance. I'm not sure I've ever seen it used in modern Japanese, but it's used fairly often in classical Japanese, i.e. the famous "azuma-kudari" sections of the Ise Monogatari.


I've seen it used in parking garages and train stations, labeling which road or stairway is reserved for those heading down.
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Re: Difference between 下る and 下がる ???

Postby kentaku_sama » Wed 12.31.2008 1:56 am

So sagaru means to descend,bring down,lower, make lower ect... as in: Lower the crate please. And Kudaru is used in a sense as in (elevator voice: "Going down...") or going lower in the country or downtown or something like that. (please correct me if I'm wrong) Would this apply to the word "Condescend" or the phrase "Tone it down" or "lower the lighting"?
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Re: Difference between 下る and 下がる ???

Postby NocturnalOcean » Wed 12.31.2008 4:40 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
kentaku_sama wrote:I've first saw this in my kanji in mangaland book. 下がる (sagaru) means to descend 下る (kudaru) means to go down. Now Myself believe that (in english anyway...) to go down and to descend is about the same meaning. So if someone could clear this up for me and what each one is used for.


kudaru usually has the meaning of "going down" in the sense of leaving a major metropolitan place (like the capital) and going to the country, for instance. I'm not sure I've ever seen it used in modern Japanese, but it's used fairly often in classical Japanese, i.e. the famous "azuma-kudari" sections of the Ise Monogatari.


I am pretty sure you see it in Modern Japanese. Whenever you go down a stair at a train station or similar places.
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Re: Difference between 下る and 下がる ???

Postby furrykef » Wed 12.31.2008 8:20 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote:but it's used fairly often in classical Japanese, i.e. the famous "azuma-kudari" sections of the Ise Monogatari.


"E.g.", not "i.e." ;)

kentaku_sama wrote:So sagaru means to descend,bring down,lower, make lower ect... as in: Lower the crate please. And Kudaru is used in a sense as in (elevator voice: "Going down...") or going lower in the country or downtown or something like that.


下がる is intransitive, meaning it cannot take an object, so it cannot be used in "lower the crate". The verb you'd be looking for in that case is 下げる (さげる), which is transitive. There are a lot of -aru/-eru pairs like this.

keatonatron wrote:I've seen it used in parking garages and train stations, labeling which road or stairway is reserved for those heading down.


I think it could be just be an abbreviation of 下がる, like how 入り口 is often abbreviated 入口. But I could just as easily be completely wrong. :P

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Re: Difference between 下る and 下がる ???

Postby NocturnalOcean » Wed 12.31.2008 8:59 am

FurryKef wrote:
keatonatron wrote:I've seen it used in parking garages and train stations, labeling which road or stairway is reserved for those heading down.


I think it could be just be an abbreviation of 下がる, like how 入り口 is often abbreviated 入口. But I could just as easily be completely wrong. :P

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I think you are wrong.

The direction for stairs are 下る and 上る, read as (kudaru and noboru).
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Re: Difference between 下る and 下がる ???

Postby furrykef » Wed 12.31.2008 12:35 pm

*shrug* OK. I was just sayin' it's hard to tell if you're only going by the written form; seeing 下る on a sign might not be the same thing as seeing 下る in a sentence. One cannot make too many assumptions. :)

(And before you think it's silly that a sign might follow different orthographic standards, I've heard of elevators in Latin America with a button labeled "LLamar", on the logic that "ll" used to be considered its own letter... yet I've never seen or heard of "ll" capitalized that way anywhere else, either before or after "ll" lost its status as a single letter. It should be "Llamar".)
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Re: Difference between 下る and 下がる ???

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 12.31.2008 5:32 pm

furrykef wrote:*shrug* OK. I was just sayin' it's hard to tell if you're only going by the written form; seeing 下る on a sign might not be the same thing as seeing 下る in a sentence. One cannot make too many assumptions. :)


The primary question is "What word do Japanese people use to express a down staircase/elevator?" The answer is くだる, and thus if you see 下る on a sign indicating a down staircase, it will be read くだる rather than さがる.
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Re: Difference between 下る and 下がる ???

Postby furrykef » Wed 12.31.2008 7:45 pm

I guess that answers that, then.
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