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The ingenious Heisig Method

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Re: The ingenious Heisig Method

Postby richvh » Sun 01.04.2009 10:47 pm

Well, frankly, working in a software company in Japan says more about his ability to communicate with a computer in C/C++/Java/whatever language the company uses than it does about his ability to communicate in Japanese (though he must have at least some ability there.) Unless he's writing the (Japanese language) user manuals, which I think unlikely.
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Re: The ingenious Heisig Method

Postby bry0000000 » Mon 01.05.2009 4:10 am

Here is a link to a podcast the AJATT guy made. But no matter how good he is, I'm sure you guys won't be convinced that RtK worked for him.

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/bl ... isode2.mp3
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Re: The ingenious Heisig Method

Postby hyperconjugated » Mon 01.05.2009 4:41 am

Funny how this suedenjin fellow got fed up with TJP, became KanjiHanzi(?) who talks about anti-Heisig bullies of TJP on his blog, gets his own Heisig thread locked at kanjikoohii, starts quite familiar sounding "The ingenious Heisig Method" thread on that forum also, and now this thread here is necroed by fresh accounts. All in just few days, quite a coincidence.
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Re: The ingenious Heisig Method

Postby Sairana » Mon 01.05.2009 4:49 am

bry0000000 wrote:Here is a link to a podcast the AJATT guy made. But no matter how good he is, I'm sure you guys won't be convinced that RtK worked for him.


Course it did. And thanks to RTK, and none of his other study coupled with actually living and working in Japan contributed nearly so much to his success than RTK.

RTK is nothing more than a [very extensive] mnemonics system. Treat it as such, and it's a resource. Follow RTK thinking it's the "magic pill" that will teach you Japanese, and it's just the setup for a horrible punchline. Anti-heisig folks aren't really anti-heisig. I advocate that every time someone sings Heisig's praises, there be a dose of reality sent along as well.

b4d0m3n wrote:Well, khatzumoto's method rings truw. I guarantee that you didn't learn your native language by studying grammar.


Nope. You learned your native language by having someone around 24/7 who constantly provided correction and reinforcement throughout your development years.

As good as AJATT is, it's not going to replicate the process of learning your native language. Your drama video is not going to correct you when you say something wrong. Your J-pop singers aren't going to give you odd looks from inside the video you're watching to indicate that you've just messed up their lyrics into some incoherent babble (Big ol' jet had a light on, anyone?
Spoiler:
Actual lyric: Big ol' jet airliner, Steve Miller Band
)

It's a nice thought, and will certainly go a long way to supplementing your studies. But be careful not to draw too close a parallel to learning your native language. It won't happen that way, no matter how much you wish it to.
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Re: The ingenious Heisig Method

Postby nest0r » Mon 01.05.2009 4:56 am

hyperconjugated wrote:Funny how this suedenjin fellow got fed up with TJP, became KanjiHanzi(?) who talks about anti-Heisig bullies of TJP on his blog, gets his own Heisig thread locked at kanjikoohii, starts quite familiar sounding "The ingenious Heisig Method" thread on that forum also, and now this thread here is necroed by fresh accounts. All in just few days, quite a coincidence.


LOL. Will you take him back, please?
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Re: The ingenious Heisig Method

Postby nukemarine » Mon 01.05.2009 5:46 am

This is not a Khatzumoto thread (AJATT Blog author). However, let's put his accomplishments in perspective along with what Heisig's RTK offers.

1. Khatzumoto did not do "RTK" per se. He utilized the method of RTK with a different book for Chinese characters since he was going to learn Chinese. It was during this time he switched to Japanese. Now, likely he did all this in about 300 hours of time (about 2 to 3 months).

2. Next (and during that time in step 1) he used methods described on Antimoon, and adapted them for Japanese. He listened to Japanese for thousands of hours passively. He watched shows that he knew in English such as Star Trek Deep Space 9), but now watched them again, and again, dubbed and subbed in Japanese. He listened to music in Japanese that he liked.

3. After RTK (again, only 300 hours here), he spent thousand(s?) of hours learning vocabulary. This was via the sentence method. The first set were sentences that were examples on how to use various particles (hmm, grammar examples). For the rest, he did this by mining sentences from stuff he liked in Japanese.

He says that knowing the kanji ahead of time fast tracked him learning sentences in native Japanese. When a sentence went in his SRS, it was not in romaji and not only in kana. When he reviewed, he wrote out the sentences.

Now look, that 300 hours he spent learning to recognize and write 4000 kanji was nothing compared to the 10,000 hours of passive listening to Japanese, thousand plus hours of studying Japanese via the sentence method, thousands of hours actively watching Japanese shows and reading dozens of mangas and novels. So yeah, he reached fluency (though not native level yet according to him) at the 18 month to 2 year mark. He could read newspapers, websites, comprehend news broadcasts, tv shows and talk shows. He's been constantly reading novels and mangas and books.

He "just" did more in 2 years with Japanese than most people bother to do. Turned out not to be anything magical, just a process of putting in time doing Japanese. In his words, he just got used to Japanese. There wasn't a magic pill. He just did the equivalent of 60 credit hours of college but aimed it all at Japanese. He didn't over think it, didn't over argue it. He just did it.
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Re: The ingenious Heisig Method

Postby KanjiHanzi » Mon 01.05.2009 6:35 am

hyperconjugated wrote:Funny how this suedenjin fellow got fed up with TJP, became KanjiHanzi(?) who talks about anti-Heisig bullies of TJP on his blog, gets his own Heisig thread locked at kanjikoohii, starts quite familiar sounding "The ingenious Heisig Method" thread on that forum also, and now this thread here is necroed by fresh accounts. All in just few days, quite a coincidence.


Well. I was quite obviously wrong about "Reviewing the Kanji forum" being an entirely friendly place. So I apologize for making a rash statement about THIS forum. I will revise my blog on this point as soon as possible. I still find some of the responses here somewhat "bully", but at least they have been expressed in an otherwise correct way without tons of foul language. Something I REALLY appreciate. Now. There is nothing mysterious about my change from Suedenjin to KanjiHanzi. Kanji + Hanzi is what I do these days. The fact that I still remain a Sudenjin is secondary. :D
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Re: The ingenious Heisig Method

Postby KanjiHanzi » Mon 01.05.2009 6:50 am

nukemarine wrote:This is not a Khatzumoto thread (AJATT Blog author). However, let's put his accomplishments in perspective along with what Heisig's RTK offers.


Thanks for an excellent summary of AJATT. I most certainly didn't know that he STARTED with Chinese and then switched to Japanese.

BTW: The book he has used for Chinese characters is a gem for every student of Kanji/Hanzi: "Chinese Characters - A Genealogy and Dictionary". ( Amazon: $17.95: http://tinyurl.com/8fxh35). I bought this several months ago and was totally overwhelmed by merely open it and not little disappointed that the simplified characters are not treated in the same way the traditional characters are, i.e. it's written in Taiwan where traditional characters rule. But after getting used to this is really invaluable. It contains more information I thought could be fitted into a book of this humble size.
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Re: The ingenious Heisig Method

Postby KanjiHanzi » Mon 01.05.2009 6:53 am

nest0r wrote:LOL. Will you take him back, please?

You're really nothing but a pathetic little troll jumping from place to place spewing your silly comments. Age: 14? Oh, sorry! 15!! That's a world of difference.
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Re: The ingenious Heisig Method

Postby KanjiHanzi » Mon 01.05.2009 7:07 am

LOL. Will you take him back, please?[/quote]

I am very happy to announce that I didn't have to leave the Reviewing the Kanji forum on my own. The overpriest there banned me for not standing the vomits from a fanatical Heisig congregating without using my right to defend myself against dozens of personal insults and "you are a ****:s" on every kind of level for merely posting a summary of what I have posted on my blog.

I am not pleased to say so, but the short time I spent there was the worst I ever have experienced in ANY public forum on the net since 1992!!!!! ("On the net" is not entirely correct since I at that time used CompuServe, but you know what I mean). Now I will take a short vacation from EVERY forum :mrgreen:

PS Silly guy. He not only banned me. He also blocked my IP address so I can't even READ the junk "they" most likely will post there now. I guess he has never heard of ways going around an IP block, has he?

He's the boss. And he lost Big Face now, but that is ENTIRELY MY FAULT, isn't it?
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Re: The ingenious Heisig Method

Postby richvh » Mon 01.05.2009 7:40 am

We really aren't interested in the dirty laundry you picked up at some other forum. Talk about Heisig all you want, but if you continue to pursue your dispute with the other forum here, there will be thread locking, and possible banning.
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Re: The ingenious Heisig Method

Postby clay » Mon 01.05.2009 7:50 am

I am at a loss as to why Heisig brings out emotions usually reserved for discussions on religion or politics. :lol:

There is a very vocal community of Heisig advocates and there is an almost as devoted Anti-Heisig camp, not least among the rather bully folks – some moderators, not the owner - at theJapanesePage.com.


I am not sure anyone could be labeled 'anti-Heisig.' I personally feel anything that encourages you on your language learning journey is good--for you. However you have to understand it is easy to have a reactionary response with all the Heisig-is-the-magic-pill nonsense going around. :wink:
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Re: The ingenious Heisig Method

Postby KanjiHanzi » Mon 01.05.2009 8:35 am

richvh wrote:We really aren't interested in the dirty laundry you picked up at some other forum. Talk about Heisig all you want, but if you continue to pursue your dispute with the other forum here, there will be thread locking, and possible banning.


Come, come, Richard!

Another forum moderator with short memory?!?! **YOU** brought this dead horse back to life after 18 months of peace. Washing dirty laundry??

I've posted

An apology to the theJapanesePage.com
http://kanjihanzi.blogspot.com/2009/01/apology-to-thejapanesepagecom.html

Accept it or leave it like that. I am really fed up with authoritarian forum moderators/owners. Make my day and ban me here too so I don't get tempted to waste valuable time discussing merely peripheral issues, instead of the facts.

Bye for now,
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Re: The ingenious Heisig Method

Postby clay » Mon 01.05.2009 8:45 am

**YOU** brought this dead horse back to life after 18 months of peace.


Actually it wasn't Rich. It was vathir (see previous page)

An apology to the theJapanesePage.com


Thanks.

It is true most advanced learners here do not overly recommend using Heisig, but I would like to think the discussion has been civil. There are always pros and cons to every study method.
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Re: The ingenious Heisig Method

Postby KanjiHanzi » Mon 01.05.2009 9:06 am

clay wrote:
**YOU** brought this dead horse back to life after 18 months of peace.


Actually it wasn't Rich. It was vathir (see previous page)


Sorry again. :-) I merely went from the other place and landed at rich's post. Never bothered to think there was more.

An apology to the theJapanesePage.com


clay wrote:Thanks.

It is true most advanced learners here do not overly recommend using Heisig, but I would like to think the discussion has been civil. There are always pros and cons to every study method.


Yes, I tend to agree that the discussion has been "civil" . Now. 8) There was a too high amount of over-reaction as soon as somebody mentioned Heisig here, IMHO, the last time I hanged around here. But things can change. And become EVEN MORE "civil" and open minded, yes. You, personally, have never been anything but kindness. Just look at the image: how could such a sweet boy be anything but ... kind? :D

Now, I will finally make true of my promise to take a short vacation from online "discussions".

Take care
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