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十二国記 discussion

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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Wed 02.04.2009 11:37 pm

There's a few typos in there... (mostly large つs typed in place of small ones, plus a few henkan misses.)

SS wrote:Page 9, 3th line ....
北の中庭だつた。

北の中庭だった。
狭い庭の隅には、使わなくなつて久しい土蔵が建つ手いる。土壁に入つた亀裂が寒々しい。

狭い庭の隅には、使わなくなって久しい土蔵が建っている。土蔵に入った亀裂が寒々しい。
三方を母屋と蔵に、もう一方を土塀に囲まれていたが、風のないただ寒いばかりのこの時、それらはほとんど恩惠をもたらさなかった。

三方を母屋と蔵に、もう一方を土塀に囲まれていたが、風のないただ寒いばかりのこの時、それらはほとんど恩恵をもたらさなかった。

Page 12, 4th line ...
彼は蔵の脇まで目をやつて、それからきょとんと瞬きをした。

彼は蔵の脇まで目をやって、それからきょとんと瞬きをした。

Was he looking towards the 蔵 which was introduced in page 9 as per above?

Yes, or rather towards its side - the side toward the earthen wall, where the narrow gap is.
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby Gundaetiapo » Wed 02.04.2009 11:47 pm

SS wrote:Page 9, 3th line ....
北の中庭だつた。
狭い庭の隅には、使わなくなつて久しい土蔵が建つ手いる。土壁に入つた亀裂が寒々しい。
三方を母屋とに、もう一方を土塀に囲まれていたが、風のないただ寒いばかりのこの時、それらはほとんど恩惠をもたらさなかった。

Page 12, 4th line ...
彼は蔵の脇まで目をやつて、それからきょとんと瞬きをした。

Was he looking towards the 蔵 which was introduced in page 9 as per above?


I think the 隙間 is between the green objects above, the corner of the 中庭 that they form.
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Wed 02.04.2009 11:57 pm

Yes, exactly, page 12, line 6 (in my book):
蔵と土塀の間のごく微かの隙間から、白いものが伸びていた。
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby ss » Thu 02.05.2009 2:05 am

Thank you, uncle Rich and Gunda.
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby katafei » Thu 02.05.2009 3:45 pm

弟はだとと言いは自分ではない、と言った

page 10, line 6.

Does this mean that the 'he' in the prologue, the boy that is sent outside by his grandmother, answered the question with:
(he had said:) my brother was the one who did it, not he himself (he himself being the boy, the older brother)

Hmm, the English sounds as ambiguous as the Japanese ^_^

Is this interpretation right, though? all the 彼's are confusing me...
and the first と言い is present tense, because the second と言った is the one to define the tense of the whole sentence??
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Thu 02.05.2009 4:17 pm

katafei wrote:弟はだとと言いは自分ではない、と言った

page 10, line 6.

Does this mean that the 'he' in the prologue, the boy that is sent outside by his grandmother, answered the question with:
(he had said:) my brother was the one who did it, not he himself (he himself being the boy, the older brother)

Hmm, the English sounds as ambiguous as the Japanese ^_^

Is this interpretation right, though? all the 彼's are confusing me...
and the first と言い is present tense, because the second と言った is the one to define the tense of the whole sentence??


There's two different indirect quotes in that sentence, said by two different people. Both 彼s refer to the older brother. The first is part of the what the little brother said, the second marks the speaker of the second quote as the older brother. And, since the final verb marks the tense for the whole sentence, the first と言い is in past tense, just like the final と言った.

Let me insert quotation marks to make it clearer.

弟は「彼だ」と言い、彼は「自分ではない」、と言った。
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby katafei » Thu 02.05.2009 4:21 pm

Ah, got it. Thanks!
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby katafei » Fri 02.06.2009 6:59 am

_____ お母さん、また、泣くのかなあ。
page 11 line 10

The long vertical line, does that indicate he's thinking the next bit? (ie not saying it out loud....)

Edit,
O, right , the answer is in the next line:

そんなことを考えて :mrgreen:
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby caroline » Sat 02.07.2009 12:19 pm

Please don't laugh :

I am having trouble with this sentence (page 8, 8th line) :
子供特有の細い首を廻らせると、動作のとおりに白く吐息が動きを見せて、それがいっそう目に寒い。

動作のとおりに白く吐息動きを見せて : the が puts all the rest before, so, it moves to much for me...
いっそう目に寒い leaves me in an ocean of perplexity...
This does not mean that I'm sure of the rest...

So the sentence would translate according to what I don't get :mrgreen:
his thin, childish head is moving (trembling?), so the continuously moving white sights show movements , and this alone would make you cold by watching it. :cry:

After laughing, please help me to put this right....
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Sat 02.07.2009 12:34 pm

"When he turned his childishly slender head, his breath showed his every movement in white, and made everything look even colder" or something along those lines.
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby Gundaetiapo » Sat 02.07.2009 12:46 pm

caroline wrote:Please don't laugh :

I am having trouble with this sentence (page 8, 8th line) :
子供特有の細い首を廻らせると、動作のとおりに白く吐息が動きを見せて、それがいっそう目に寒い。

動作のとおりに白く吐息動きを見せて : the が puts all the rest before, so, it moves to much for me...
いっそう目に寒い leaves me in an ocean of perplexity...
This does not mean that I'm sure of the rest...

So the sentence would translate according to what I don't get :mrgreen:
his thin, childish head is moving (trembling?), so the continuously moving white sights show movements , and this alone would make you cold by watching it. :cry:

After laughing, please help me to put this right....


I thought this sentence was the hardest in the prologue, and spent a long time puzzling over it. The sentence is essentially trying to invoke a certain imagery.

Some comments:

: 動作 refers to: 首を廻らせる
: 動き refers to the movement of the exhaled breath.
: 一層目 【いっそうめ】 (n) first layer -- avoiding 直訳、I'd translate それがいっそう目に寒い as "such begins to convey the cold".

I have another sentence in mind as the second hardest of the prologue. I'll wait and see if someone asks about it or I'll bring it up in the meeting it's scheduled for. :)
Last edited by Gundaetiapo on Sun 02.08.2009 10:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby caroline » Sat 02.07.2009 1:31 pm

Thanks Rich, sounds simple enough when you write it!

I thought this sentence was the hardest in the prologue, and spent a long time puzzling over it. The sentence is essentially trying to invoke a certain imagery.

Thanks Gunda, for not making me feel like a total idiot.
I thought too that it was trying to invoke an imagery, but wanted to try to break down the sentence before having a go at the imagery...
which anyway would have gone down like this :
When his slender (Rich is right and I'm french) and childish head was moving, his breath colored the movements in white and you got cold just watching him.

"such only begins to convey the cold".
more poetic, I admit...


動作 refers to: 首を廻らせる

Yet, with this と in the middle, it stretches my comprehension
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby Gundaetiapo » Sat 02.07.2009 1:55 pm

and made everything look even colder


and you got cold just watching him


I wonder if the words highlighted in green are because of 目? I got the impression 目 here is closer to the usage that makes a number ordinal (eg 一番目) than to "eye", except with いっそう目 as one word.

動作 refers to: 首を廻らせる

Yet, with this と in the middle, it stretches my comprehension


I think if it said その動作 the sentence is unchanged, the その referencing back to the previous clause.
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby katafei » Sun 02.08.2009 5:29 am

I had this sentence marked with a big ? as well.....^_^
Thought it was the cold breath that was twirling along the childlike neck with every movement...
I wonder if the words highlighted in green are because of 目? I got the impression 目 here is closer to the usage that makes a number ordinal (eg 一番目) than to "eye", except with いっそう目 as one word.

That makes sense to me. JB actually gives this combination:
一層目 【いっそうめ】 (n) first layer
But I have to admit, それがいっそう目に寒い is still hard to crack. Esp with the adjective at the end. If it would be 'a first layer of sth', then I would expect a noun following....

Can't wait to find out what your second hardest sentence is. I've got some minor question marks, but for now I'm focusing on my lines, because some are pretty hard as well 8)
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby Garappachi » Sun 02.08.2009 8:53 am

みなさん、お悩みのようですね。

目に寒い。

Gundaetiapo さんが難しく感じたり、katafei さんや他の方が疑問に思うのも当然で、非常に珍しい表現です。(私は初めて見ました。)
おそらく作者特有の文学的表現なのでしょう。

文脈から判断して、
目に寒々しく映る。
または
目に寒々と映る。
のような意味になると思います。

想像ですが、「緑は目に優しい。」などの表現から来た、新しい試みだと思います。

この表現だけでも、他に見慣れない表現がたくさん出てくることが予想されます。
皆さんの読解力で、ぜひ読破してください。
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