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十二国記 discussion

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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby katafei » Sun 02.08.2009 9:53 am

garappachiさん,
ご説明をありがとうございます。
Actually, there was very little doubt in my mind about Rich's translation being right, but it's nice to know the how and what. ^_^

I have another tiny question:
力の入らない足を動かすと、足の先に湿った土と金色のかけらが触れた。

Is 土 pronounced as 'do' or 'uchi'?
And 金色 as きんいろ of こんじき?
I'm thinking of the first option for both, but not sure.....
We are all but images of our time
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby Gundaetiapo » Sun 02.08.2009 9:55 am

Garappachi wrote:想像ですが、「緑は目に優しい。」などの表現から来た、新しい試みだと思います。


Thanks Garappachi, I think that is very helpful. Considering 目に優しい as "easy on the eyes", it sounds like Rich and Caroline had the right idea.
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby becki_kanou » Sun 02.08.2009 11:46 am

katafei wrote:I have another tiny question:
力の入らない足を動かすと、足の先に湿った土と金色のかけらが触れた。

Is 土 pronounced as 'do' or 'uchi'?
And 金色 as きんいろ of こんじき?
I'm thinking of the first option for both, but not sure.....


That's つち and きんいろ so you were half right!
そうだ、嬉しいんだ、生きる喜び!
例え胸の傷が痛んでも。
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby caroline » Sun 02.08.2009 12:43 pm

Thanks, Gapparachiさん、from the 他の人。
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby ss » Sun 02.08.2009 11:26 pm

雪の白よりも、彼の吐息《といき》のほうが寒々しかった。子供特有の細い首をめぐらせると、動作のとおりに白く吐息が動きを見せて、それがいっそう目に寒い。

Am trying to understand this sentence, too.

雪の白よりも、彼の吐息《といき》のほうが寒々しかった。 << trying to imagine.... In a very cold chilly winter, he was standing outside the house, when he breathe, a breath of white air let out from his mouth.
(because of the cold, his breathing shows breath of white air letting out ..... )


子供特有の細い首をめぐらせると、動作のとおりに白く吐息が動きを見せて、それがいっそう目に寒い。<<< trying to imagine ..... he turned his small neck, and the "white breath" followed his movement, and was hanging around in the air ...
(Because of the movement of this boy and the white breath followed and hung in the air, (それがいっそう目に寒い) this scene looked colder than the actual coldness in this winter, as described in the very first paragraph 雪が降っていた。重い大きな雪片《せっぺん》が沈むように降りしきっていた。)


GOD, after translation, English is harder to understand/comprehend than the Japanese >_<''
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby katafei » Mon 02.09.2009 1:47 am

雪の白よりも、彼の吐息《といき》のほうが寒々しかった

Even more then the white snow, his sigh/breath revealed how cold it was.
(very lit translation, only to convey my interpretation of the sentence)

子供特有の細い首をめぐらせると、動作のとおりに白く吐息が動きを見せて、それがいっそう目に寒い

see above posts.....^_^
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Mon 02.09.2009 7:34 am

His breath was even chillier/bleaker than the whiteness of the snow.
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby Garappachi » Mon 02.09.2009 12:22 pm

caroline さん、Gundaetiapo さん、katafei さん。
みなさんのお役に立てたようで、何よりです。

ところで、読めば読むほど、この作家は独特の表現を用いていることが分かってきますね。
その中でも、特に気になったのが次の一節・・・

動作のとおりに白く吐息が動きを見せて

一般的には「白く」ではなく「白い」と表現して、「吐息」だけを修飾するのが普通です。
しかし、「吐息が動きを見せて」全体を敢えて「白く」と形容することによって、「吐息の動きが見せる白(さ)」と「雪の白(さ)」を対比させて、「吐息の動きが見せる白(さ)」の方が「寒い」と言っているのですね。
善悪は別にして、おもしろい表現です。


ここで、力試しのクイズを出してみます。興味のある方はぜひ挑戦してください。

①雪の白(さ)
②彼の吐息
③(彼の)吐息の動きが見せる白(さ)
④(彼の)白い吐息

①②③④の中から、三つを使って、寒い順番に並び替えてください。
(実際には表現されていない紛らわしい例題を一つ入れています。)
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Mon 02.09.2009 12:32 pm

試してみます。
Spoiler:
雪の白さよりも彼の白い吐息の方が寒かったが、最も寒々しいのは吐息の動きが見せる白さだった。

訂正
Spoiler:
雪の城とよりも彼の吐息の方が寒かったが、最も寒々しいのは吐息の動きが見せる白さだった。
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby Garappachi » Mon 02.09.2009 12:58 pm

richvh さん、早速の挑戦ありがとうございます。

さあ!他の方もどしどし挑戦を!
答えはまた後ほど・・・。
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby katafei » Mon 02.09.2009 1:38 pm

Gapparachiさん,

I will certainly give it a go later!
Tonight I'm going out and I can't do this (yet) at a glance . . . :mrgreen:
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby caroline » Mon 02.09.2009 2:04 pm

Gapparachiさん

Thanks for the challenge; I'll think it over too...

But I have another problem...

There is a sentence I think I understand, broadly, but there is a piece I don't make sense of...
三方を母屋と蔵に、もう一方を土塀に囲まれていたが、風のないただ寒いばかりのこの時、それらはほとんど恩恵をもたらさなかった。
The courtyard was surrounded on three sides by the mainhouse and the storehouse, and one one side by the mudwall, but that brought practically no confort, as if there was no wind, it was still so cold.

The ばらりのこの時 bit leaves me quite perplexed, as it does not fit with what I understand of the usual ばかりの use.
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby katafei » Mon 02.09.2009 6:59 pm

caroline wrote:三方を母屋と蔵に、もう一方を土塀に囲まれていたが、風のないただ寒いばかりのこの時、それらはほとんど恩恵をもたらさなかった。
The courtyard was surrounded on three sides by the mainhouse and the storehouse, and one one side by the mudwall, but that brought practically no confort, as if there was no wind, it was still so cold.

ALC gives this.
I read it as:
Three sides were flanked by the main wing of the house and storehouses, and the other side (or all sides/ the whole thing??) was encircled by a mud wall. But even though (tada) there was no wind, it was still plenty cold (samuibakarino) at that time, and it did not bring them comfort. ('it' being either the sheltered house or 'that time'??)

As for the quizz of garappachi....I'm afraid I don't quite understand what were supposed to do....
Use 3 of the 4 given phrases, replace 白(さ)with the equivalent of 寒い and then string it to one sentence?

Spoiler:
I'd be tempted to have a peak at Rich's answer, but I really would like to figure it out myself
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Mon 02.09.2009 7:05 pm

It was surrounded on three sides by the house and the shed, and on the last by an earthen wall, but at a time like this when it wasn't windy, just cold, that was small comfort.

You're supposed to choose three of the four phrases, and make a comparison between them.
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby katafei » Mon 02.09.2009 7:54 pm

So then 寒いばかりの means 'just cold'?
why is をもたらさなかった translated with a positive tense? I thought 'ほとんど。。。ない’ meant sth like 'hardly any'?


①雪の白(さ)
②彼の吐息
③(彼の)吐息の動きが見せる白(さ)
④(彼の)白い吐息

①②③④の中から、三つを使って、寒い順番に並び替えてください



Spoiler:
①雪の寒さ
③(彼の)吐息の動きが見せる寒さ
④(彼の)寒い吐息

Hmmm, that's probably too simple to be correct.....I'm afraid I don't get it...
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