Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - 十二国記 discussion

十二国記 discussion

Discussions on Japan's history or Japanese books!

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Sun 02.15.2009 8:37 pm

Some people don't like finding out what's going to happen before they read it.
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby ss » Sun 02.15.2009 8:51 pm

It was certainly impossible to comprehend the full scale of the poetic series, for me at least. In particular, I was delighted to see you all engaging in the debates and questions/answers over the few pages of reading last night. It was the first trial, afterall.

I would like to thank Rich and Becki for giving their time and helping us. And I understand that Phreadom has worked his way to figure out the webchat with Rikaichan, and made LOG available for future reference, as well.

Appreciated all the hard work behind the scene, everyone. Please tell us how we can improve on the study session. It may not be as easy as it may seem, I think it is better to open up your heart and speak up your mind, tell us how we can improve on the study session. I thought they were just dropping a hint there, that might make reading easier for us, later.

Please check out the CHAT LOG here.
Last edited by ss on Sun 02.15.2009 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
ss
 
Posts: 1656
Joined: Fri 11.18.2005 10:07 am
Native language: English speaking family

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby Gundaetiapo » Sun 02.15.2009 8:56 pm

Someone was talking about matters that are not known to those of us reading the series for the first time, for example the relation between Sansi and Taiki. I wish to find out about these things when the author chooses. Thanks for understanding Rich.
Gundaetiapo
 
Posts: 527
Joined: Fri 03.30.2007 11:26 am
Location: New England
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Sun 02.15.2009 10:04 pm

The relation between 泰麒 and 汕子 is not something the author keeps from the reader for any extended period of time. It's clear by the end of Chapter 1, section 1.
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby katafei » Mon 02.16.2009 3:41 am

Personnally I have the feeling nothing specific to the plot of the story was revealed....
I certainly am none the wiser, but that may indicate more about me then the plot :mrgreen:



But: I do hope you´ll reconsider...if we all promise to stick to the pages of the week...???
User avatar
katafei
 
Posts: 1766
Joined: Sun 07.09.2006 9:56 am
Location: A'veen
Native language: Dutch; Female

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby caroline » Mon 02.16.2009 3:05 pm

Well,
this is not a thriller, anyway, and it does not seem to me that a lot was spoiled.
I hope, gunda, you'll reconsider: there are quite some things to get straight in the chat, and a good working chat had never been built in one session.
Nevertheless, I found it quite interesting, though participation quite uneven.
Katafei wrote :
Okay, well, I think your part is too long.

I'd suggest you take up to
....の穴があいていた。
Page 18 2/3 along the way....


If that was for me, it's ok;
if you want to switch parts, it's ok too : I'm not picky, and I'll try anyway to look at least rapidly at what's in the middle.

Thanks also for the good work on your part, Katafei; I'll post later the rest of my part, as I am not in the copy and paste mood right now.

Can I change my login name to "dumbblonde"?
User avatar
caroline
 
Posts: 345
Joined: Sat 03.11.2006 8:47 am
Location: Paris
Native language: Français

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby ss » Tue 02.17.2009 5:08 am

Then SS:
up until the first white line in section 2, page 21
...の住処なのだった。


To confirm mine,
Page 18 彼女は足を止めた。。。。。。。。。。。page 20 ただ蓬山の中腹に、蓬廬宮(ほうろぐう)と呼ばれる小さな宮殿がある。ここが蓬山で──ひいては五山で繰らす者たちの唯一(ゆいいつ)の住処(すみか)なのだった。

Kat, thanks so much for the arrangement. I have a hectic schedule for the next two weeks, I'm sorry I can't make it on the 1st March for chat study session. If all of you can make it, please go ahead.
I can make it on the 8th, 15th, 22nd March, however.

-----
Gunda, what Kat and Caro said, **pat pat* and come back to the toddler club, you are being heard. そうしよう、ね?
User avatar
ss
 
Posts: 1656
Joined: Fri 11.18.2005 10:07 am
Native language: English speaking family

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby katafei » Tue 02.17.2009 7:04 am

Okay, let's see what the others prefer for dates.
I don't mind making it the 8th...time does go by rather quickly, and that will give Gundae some time to meditate...

I've tried to make a division on next chat's text, so that we all know which part we're talking about.
the lines might differ slightly for each of us, but that should not be too big a hurdle....

Paragraph 1:
Line 1「孵ったようだね。。。」
Line 9 。。。ふむ、と間近で声がした。 

Paragraph 2:
Line 1 「よい女怪だ」
Line 11「上体は人」

Paragraph 3
Line 1 背中にわされた。。。
Line 10 考婆がたっとつぶやいた

Paragraph 4
Line 1 「汕、子、だ。。。。
Line 8 。。。四角の穴が空いていた。

Paragraph 5
Line 1 彼女は足を止めた。
Line 6 「そら、あゆき」

Paragraph 6
Line 1 彼女は駆けだした。
Line 6  「たいき」

Paragraph 7
Line 1 初めての声。。。。
Line 7 汕子はどの。。。

Section 2
Paragraph 1
Line 1 世界の中。。。
Line 9 習わしている。

Paragraph 2
Line 1 五山は。。。
Line 7 。。。の住処なのだった。

Paragraph 3
Line 1 「。。。。おや、。。。」
Line 11 。。。を呈している。

Paragraph 4
Line 1 奇岩はその。。。
Line 8 。。。女仙はいない。

Paragraph 5
Line 1 反対に、。。。
Line 9 。。。感じられてならない。

Paragraph 6
Line 1 「なにか。。。」
Line 15 。。。のに使われる。

Paragraph 7
Line 1 海桐花の花を。。。
Line 10 。。。にほかならなかった。

Paragraph 8
Line 1 正しい道を知っている。。。
Line 13 。。。入らなければならなかった。

Paragraph 9
Line 1 一歩中へ入れば、。。。
Line 10 。。。が唯一だった。

Paragraph 10
Line 1 蓬山は。。。
Line 11 。。。許されなかった。

Paragraph 11
Line 1 禎衛は笑う。
Line 10 。。。落ちた。


Please comment.
User avatar
katafei
 
Posts: 1766
Joined: Sun 07.09.2006 9:56 am
Location: A'veen
Native language: Dutch; Female

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby katafei » Tue 02.17.2009 4:18 pm

命がどこから来るのか知る者はないし、ましてや人でないものならなおさらだった。
Noone, let alone an unhumanly creature, knows where life springs from.

命も意識も、彼女の中唐突に宿った。
Life and consciousness, both suddenly dwelled inside her.

目覚めたとき、彼女は白い枝の下にいて、頭の中にはたったひとつの言葉しかなかった。
―――――泰麒。
When she woke up, she was lying under a white branch; in her head was but one word…..Taiki.

身を起こす間に、その言葉は頭の中いっぱいに満ちて、あふれると同時に彼女はすべてのことがらを把握していた。
While getting up, that word filled her head completely, and overflowing, she became aware of all things.

自分が何者であるのか、なんのために存在するのか、なにがもっとも重要であるのか。
―――――泰麒。
Who she was, why she was alive, what was essential (by nature? >mottomo)

それは半身を起こしたいまも、彼女の脳裏からあふれて身内にしたたりつづけていた。
And when she was half up, it flowed from her mind and trickled down into her whole body.

まるでしたたっていく水滴を体の奥深いところで受けとめようとするように、彼女は起こした上体を反らした。 顔を仰向け、目を閉じた。
As if she was trying to catch a drop of water in a deep place of her body, she turned the upper part of her body. She faced up, closed her eyes.
(oh, well, I haven't quite sussed this bit yet....^_^)

力の入らない足を動かすと、足の先に湿った土と金色のかけらが触れた。
When she moved her feeble legs, her soles touched wet soil and golden shells.

かけらはついに先ほどまで彼女を抱いていた殻だった。 土が吸った水分は、つい先ほどまで殻の中に満たされたいたものだった。彼女はほんの少し前に殻の中から孵ったのだ。彼女を抱いた金の卵は枝を卵れて落下し、割れた。
Shells from the egg that only recently had embaced her. The fluid that soaked the earth had only recently filled the egg. Only just now had she hatched from that egg. The golden egg that had embraced her, had broken from the branch and fallen to the floor. (卵れて?)

彼女は卵のけからをしばらく見やって、 次いで視線を上げた。 目の前には白い枝。白銀でできたのような枝は頭上に伸びて、はるか上空で堅牢な岩盤に吸いこまれている。
A brief moment she stared at the egg shells and then glanced up. Where she looked there were white branches. As if made from silver, the branches stretched out over her head absorbing the solid bedrock in the skies high above.
(??)

枝にはいくつか、金色の果実がこぶのように実っていた。それはまだ命を宿さぬ卵なのだと、自分もついさっきまで同じようにしてそこ実っていたのだと彼女は考えられるわけでもなく思い出していた。
So many branches, with golden fruits beginning life as little lumps. They were eggs still hosting life, just like hers until just now. She wasn’t really thinking this, but remembering it.

命とは、そのようにして誕生するものなのだ。―――――泰麒。
Coming into existence like this was, life . . . Taiki.

涙は初めて外気に触れた瞳を守ろうとする反射にすぎなかったが、彼女はその熱いほど暖かいものがすべり落ちっていく感触を、たったひとつの言葉が身内をすべり落ちていく感触だと感じた。
The tears that came were nothing but a reflex of her eyes being touched by the air, but feeling those heatlike warm things gliding down, she could feel only one word gliding down her entire body.

泰麒、泰麒と呼ばわりながら、涙がこぼれる。
As she called out ‘Taiki, Taiki’, tears were flowing.

まっすぐに立ちあがると髪を枝にすくわれた。彼女は土を踏んだ四肢とは別の二本の腕で、それをほどいた
When she got up, her hair got caught in the branches. She trod the earth with four limbs and using the other two, her arms, she untangled it.



Well, this is my translation so far.

At the moment Im particularly fascinated by the ~のだと structure in:
枝にはいくつか、金色の果実がこぶのように実っていた。それはまだ命を宿さぬ卵なのだと、自分もついさっきまで同じようにしてそこ実っていたのだと彼女は考えられるわけでもなく思い出していた。

It looks very poetic, but I'm not sure about the exact meaning of it.
User avatar
katafei
 
Posts: 1766
Joined: Sun 07.09.2006 9:56 am
Location: A'veen
Native language: Dutch; Female

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Tue 02.17.2009 8:57 pm

まるでしたたっていく水滴を体の奥深いところで受け止めようとするように、彼女は起こした上体を反らした。 顔を仰向け、目を閉じた。
As if she was trying to catch a drop of water in a deep place of her body, she turned the upper part of her body. She faced up, closed her eyes.
(oh, well, I haven't quite sussed this bit yet....^_^)


She bent her upper body, as if she were truly trying to catch a drop of water in some deep place within her body. Turning her face up, she closed her eyes.

かけらはついに先ほどまで彼女を抱いていた殻だった。 土が吸った水分は、つい先ほどまで殻の中に満たされたいたものだった。彼女はほんの少し前に殻の中から孵ったのだ。彼女を抱いた金の卵は枝を卵れて落下し、割れた。
Shells from the egg that only recently had embaced her. The fluid that soaked the earth had only recently filled the egg. Only just now had she hatched from that egg. The golden egg that had embraced her, had broken from the branch and fallen to the floor. (卵れて?)


Look again, it's 孵(かえ)った, "hatched".

自分が何者であるのか、なんのために存在するのか、なにがもっとも重要であるのか。
―――――泰麒。
Who she was, why she was alive, what was essential (by nature? >mottomo)


Wrong もっとも. It's 最も, not 尤も. "What was most important."

命とは、そのようにして誕生するものなのだ。―――――泰麒。
Coming into existence like this was, life . . . Taiki.


Life was, a thing that was born like this.

まっすぐに立ちあがると髪を枝にすくわれた。彼女は土を踏んだ四肢とは別の二本の腕で、それをほどいた
When she got up, her hair got caught in the branches. She trod the earth with four limbs and using the other two, her arms, she untangled it.


She untangled it with two arms other than the four limbs she trod the ground with.
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby Gundaetiapo » Tue 02.17.2009 10:54 pm

At the moment Im particularly fascinated by the ~のだと structure in:
枝にはいくつか、金色の果実がこぶのように実っていた。それはまだ命を宿さぬ卵なのだと、自分もついさっきまで同じようにしてそこ実っていたのだと彼女は考えられるわけでもなく思い出していた。


Both とs refer to 考えられる. のだ is fairly common grammar (Tae Kim may have something).
Gundaetiapo
 
Posts: 527
Joined: Fri 03.30.2007 11:26 am
Location: New England
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Tue 02.17.2009 11:14 pm

Gundaetiapo is right, each of the とs are quoting the previous clause, and both are being applied to 考えられる. The preceding のだs are the ordinary explanatory tags you should be familiar with by now. Tae Kim covers it here. (I'd meant to comment on this in the previous post, but I was in the middle of a card game.)

Japanese poetry doesn't use rhyme.
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby Garappachi » Wed 02.18.2009 12:25 am

確かに「~のだと」自体は珍しくありませんが、1つの文の中で2回使われていることに面白さがありますね。

①-Aそれはまだ命を宿さぬ卵なのだ
①-Bそれはまだ命を宿さぬ卵なのだ

②自分もついさっきまで同じようにしてそこ実っていたのだと
③彼女は考えられるわけでもなく思い出していた。

(1) ( ①-A and ② ) + ③
(2) ( ①-B and ② ) + ③
(3) ①-A + ③ and ② + ③

(1)(2)ともに同じことを表現しています。そして、(2)の方が一般的な表現です。
ところが、(1)の場合、①と②の間で「切れた感じ」がして、①と②、それぞれの印象が強まるように感じます。
極端に言うと(3)に近い感じですね。
Garappachi
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon 06.11.2007 6:52 am
Location: 関西
Native language: にほんご
Gender: Male

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby katafei » Wed 02.18.2009 12:16 pm

Thanks for all the comments!
(@Garappachiさん: I'll read your comment later, right now I'm a little too tired for Japanese ^_^)

@Rich, I know Japanese poetry doesn't use rhyme, but I meant another kind of poetry. I haven't read many Japanese books yet, but I think this particular one does have a certain rythm. Repeating grammatical structure adds to that rythm. This writer uses that quite a lot, consciously or unconsciously. I think it's one of those things that make for a good writer....

As for this bit:
枝にはいくつか、金色の果実がこぶのように実っていた。それはまだ命を宿さぬ卵なのだと、自分もついさっきまで同じようにしてそこ実っていたのだと彼女は考えられるわけでもなく思い出していた。.
So many branches, bearing little lumps of golden fruits. Eggs still hosting life, just like hers until just now. She wasn’t really thinking this, but remembering it.

*I've changed the translation a bit...I'm not happy with it yet.
Branches but, flowers bloom, but what do fruits, nuts and berries do?

**esp the second sentence needs some work...
User avatar
katafei
 
Posts: 1766
Joined: Sun 07.09.2006 9:56 am
Location: A'veen
Native language: Dutch; Female

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Wed 02.18.2009 12:30 pm

Fruits ripen.

I believe that いくつか is modifying 果実 and not 枝, and has a meaning closer to "several" than "many". Also, 宿さぬ is negative; the eggs [i]do not yet host life.[i]
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

PreviousNext

Return to History and Literature Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron